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Evidence · Study critique · continued

Reverse causation in a cohort study of weight and outcome — a second dataset posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

SV
s.vukovicTL213 Sep 2025#31
SB
sharps_binTL2Regular13 Sep 2025#32

Post #30 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

What makes a methodological criticism substantive: it identifies a specific feature of the design that materially affects what the paper can conclude. "Small sample size" alone is weak. "Small sample size for a rare outcome, so the confidence interval is wide" is stronger.

The rule of thumb is fine; the edge cases are where it earns its keep.

0 likes 10mo
NC
n.cabreraTL213 Sep 2025#33
baseline_peak, post #28: Trying to state the Reverse causation position in a way that someone who disagrees would recognise as fair, because I do not think the version in this thread passes that test. Go to post

Reverse causation sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly.

0 likes in reply to #28 10mo
SS
steady_stateTL3Regular13 Sep 2025#34
a.nascimento, post #3: Posting my Reverse causation numbers with the method attached so they can be discounted properly. Uncontrolled, unblinded, and collected by someone who wanted a particular answer. Go to post

Distinguishing three things in the Reverse causation discussion that keep getting used interchangeably: the observation, the proposed mechanism, and the recommendation that gets attached to both.

4 likes in reply to #3 10mo
BK
b.kowalskiTL213 Sep 2025#35

Marking my place. If it changes for me I will come back and say so.

13 likes 10mo
JW
journalclub_wrenTL3Regular13 Sep 2025#36

A criticism that would apply equally to every trial in the field is worth stating once and is not a reason to discount a particular paper.

26 likes 10mo
HA
h.agyemanTL213 Sep 2025 · edited#37
b.kowalski, post #35: Marking my place. If it changes for me I will come back and say so. Go to post

Having read the whole Reverse causation thread before replying: the question in the first post has not actually been answered yet, and three of us have answered a nearby one instead.

0 likes in reply to #35 10mo
DH
dietitian_hollisTL3Dietitian13 Sep 2025#38

The strongest argument against my own position on Reverse causation, stated as well as I can state it, since nobody else has yet.

2 likes 10mo
SM
s.mbekiTL213 Sep 2025#39
ma.nascimento, post #20: Noted, and thank you for writing it out rather than summarising it. Go to post

Criticism is more useful when it is narrower. "The trial answers a different question from the one being asked" is actionable; "the trial is flawed" is not.

0 likes in reply to #20 10mo
NA
n.abernathyTL3Analytical chemist13 Sep 2025#40

The failure mode on Reverse causation is boring rather than dramatic. It is almost always the step everyone assumes was done correctly because it is too simple to get wrong.

0 likes 10mo
YM
y.mensahTL3Wiki editor13 Sep 2025#41

Reverse causation looks different depending on whether you are reading the primary literature or the summaries of it, and the difference is not in our favour.

25 likes 10mo
CC
c.castellanosTL213 Sep 2025#42
Wickramasinghe, post #24: That is the distinction I keep failing to hold on to. Written down now. Go to post

The pre-specified endpoint being a weaker proxy than you would like is a real criticism. It is a smaller one than saying the result was chosen after the fact.

12 likes in reply to #24 10mo
NE
n.ekstromTL2Regular13 Sep 2025 · edited#43

Everything in post #39 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

The practical version of Reverse causation is three sentences long. The rigorous version is three pages and reaches the same conclusion with the conditions attached.

1 like 10mo
TK
t.karlsenTL213 Sep 2025#44

I would keep Reverse causation and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly.

0 likes 10mo
SS
steady_stateTL3Regular13 Sep 2025#45

Saving this. It is the version I will quote when the question comes round again.

18 likes 10mo
YA
y.asanteTL214 Sep 2025#46
d.ndiaye, post #21: Worth separating two things that post #17 runs together. Small methodological point on Reverse causation: repeating a measurement is cheap and resolves most of what is being argued about here at no cost to anyone. Go to post

Multiple comparisons: if a paper reports many outcomes, the chance of a spurious association by random chance is real. Pre-specification of primary outcomes matters and secondary analyses are weaker evidence.

This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it.

7 likes in reply to #21 10mo
JW
journalclub_wrenTL3Regular14 Sep 2025#47
IMainwaring, post #11: Nothing to add on the substance. Thank you for taking the question at face value. Go to post

Answering the question post #43 raises rather than the one it answers.

Careful with the language on Reverse causation. "Not detected" and "not present" are different findings and the first is a statement about the method.

0 likes in reply to #11 10mo
EH
e.halonenTL214 Sep 2025#48

The arithmetic in post #47 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Two questions I would want answered before drawing anything from the Reverse causation data above: how were the cases selected, and what happened to the ones that dropped out.

0 likes 10mo
SG
s.grahameTL2Member14 Sep 2025#49

Where I part company with post #47, and it is a narrow parting.

Per-protocol and intention-to-treat analyses answer different questions and neither is the honest one by default. Reporting both is the practice worth insisting on.

12 likes 10mo
ER
e.roosTL214 Sep 2025#50

Post #47 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Adding a null result on Reverse causation. I looked, carefully, and found nothing, and null results deserve posting precisely because they never are.

4 likes 10mo
EP
e.piresTL214 Sep 2025#51
y.asante, post #46: Multiple comparisons: if a paper reports many outcomes, the chance of a spurious association by random chance is real. Pre-specification of primary outcomes matters and secondary analyses are weaker evidence. This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it. Go to post

Reframing Reverse causation slightly, because I think the disagreement is about the question rather than the answer. If the question is "does it happen", yes. If it is "how often", nobody here knows.

0 likes in reply to #46 10mo
FA
f.amankwahTL214 Sep 2025#52

Post #48 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Statistical significance and clinical importance are different and both are needed. A significant difference below the minimal important difference is a real finding of no practical consequence.

None of the above is medical advice and I am not qualified to give any.

3 likes 10mo
HS
hana.satoTL4 Moderator14 Sep 2025#53

Reverse causation has a well-known answer and a correct answer, and the interesting work is establishing that they are the same. Nobody has done that here yet.

15 likes 10mo
CO
c.ostergaardTL214 Sep 2025#54

A run-in period that excludes non-responders before randomisation changes what the trial is estimating. It is legitimate design and it must be stated in any summary.

30 likes 10mo
VB
v.bhattacharyaTL214 Sep 2025#55
t.karlsen, post #44: I would keep Reverse causation and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly. Go to post

Attrition is the failure mode most likely to invalidate a result and the least likely to be discussed. Differential attrition between arms is the specific thing to look for.

1 like in reply to #44 10mo
JD
j.dahlbergTL214 Sep 2025 · edited#56

Agreed, and I will stop repeating the version of this I had been repeating.

6 likes 10mo
TW
t.wojcikTL214 Sep 2025#57

Building on post #54 rather than restating it.

I have three months of notes on Reverse causation and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight.

21 likes 10mo
AK
a.kowalskiTL214 Sep 2025#58

Something worth flagging about Reverse causation: the strongest-sounding claims in this thread are the ones with no source attached, which is the usual pattern and not a coincidence.

0 likes 10mo
FP
forest_plotTL3Evidence synthesis14 Sep 2025#59

Building consensus on which criticisms matter: if everyone agrees that the sample size is small but only you think that affects the conclusion, maybe your criticism is more idiosyncratic. That does not make it wrong but it is worth noticing.

Written quickly, so the reasoning may be tighter than the wording.

2 likes 10mo
SA
s.antonsenTL214 Sep 2025#60

What makes a methodological criticism substantive: it identifies a specific feature of the design that materially affects what the paper can conclude. "Small sample size" alone is weak. "Small sample size for a rare outcome, so the confidence interval is wide" is stronger.

9 likes 10mo