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Evidence · Trials

Coming back to: Sample size calculations, read backwards from the published number

PR
policy_readerTL2Regular7 Mar 2025#1

On the subject in the title: Sample size calculations, read backwards from the published number Working notes rather than a conclusion.

Sample size calculations — I have the observation and I do not trust my interpretation of it, so I am posting the observation and holding the interpretation back.

Numbers, method and the conditions under which they were collected are below. Interpret them however they warrant.

15 likes 17mo
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IRenaudinTL2Member13 Mar 2025#2

The reason Sample size calculations keeps being re-asked is that the answer is conditional and people quote it without the condition. It is not that the answer is unknown.

19 likes 17mo
EB
e.bakkenTL217 Mar 2025 · edited#3

Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size.

0 likes 16mo
MM
methods_marginTL3Regular20 Mar 2025#4
e.bakken, post #3: Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size. Go to post

The opening post put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Marking my uncertainty on Sample size calculations explicitly. I am confident about the direction, much less confident about the size, and not confident at all that it generalises past the case in the first post.

0 likes in reply to #3 16mo
TV
t.vargaTL224 Mar 2025#5

Post #2 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Nobody has said the unglamorous part of Sample size calculations yet, so: most of the variation is explained by things that are boring to write about and easy to check.

13 likes 16mo
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NardoneTL2Member27 Mar 2025#6

I read post #4 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

26 likes 16mo
NK
n.kaufmannTL230 Mar 2025#7
IRenaudin, post #2: The reason Sample size calculations keeps being re-asked is that the answer is conditional and people quote it without the condition. It is not that the answer is unknown. Go to post

What I would want before treating Sample size calculations as settled: the method, the sample, and whether anyone tried to find the opposite result. Two of the three are usually missing.

0 likes in reply to #2 16mo
AK
a.kwiatkowskiTL2Member2 Apr 2025#8
methods_margin, post #4: The opening post put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it. Marking my uncertainty on Sample size calculations explicitly. I am confident about the direction, much less confident about the size, and not confident at all that it generalises past the case in the first post. Go to post

Agreed, and I will stop repeating the version of this I had been repeating.

2 likes in reply to #4 16mo
IB
i.balogunTL25 Apr 2025#9

The question underneath Sample size calculations is usually "how would I tell?" rather than "what is true?", and that one has a method attached to it.

Write down what you would expect to see under each hypothesis before you collect anything. If they predict the same observation, collecting it will not help.

18 likes 16mo
DT
dexa_twice_yearlyTL38 Apr 2025#10
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chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist10 Apr 2025#11

Taking Sample size calculations seriously for a moment rather than deflecting: the honest position is that the community has observations and no controlled comparison, and those two things support very different sentences.

21 likes 16mo
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e.kuuselaTL213 Apr 2025#12

Confirming post #11 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Composite endpoints should be read component by component. A composite driven entirely by its softest component is a different finding from one where the components move together.

9 likes 15mo
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retention_indexTL2Analytical chemist15 Apr 2025#13

Grateful for the specificity. Vague answers to this question are what sent me looking.

1 like 15mo
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m.adeyemiTL218 Apr 2025#14
dexa_twice_yearly, post #10: I read post #9 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not),… Go to post

Reading back through the Sample size calculations threads from last year, the same three questions come up every time and only one of them has ever been answered properly. That seems like a documentation gap rather than a knowledge gap.

0 likes in reply to #10 15mo
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preregisteredTL3Research methods20 Apr 2025#15

Where I part company with post #11, and it is a narrow parting.

Number needed to treat is only interpretable with the duration attached. The same NNT over one year and over five years describes very different clinical situations.

15 likes 15mo
RP
r.petrovTL223 Apr 2025#16

Post #15 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

My experience of Sample size calculations contradicts the reply above. I am posting it as a data point rather than as a refutation, because one person's experience is exactly that.

5 likes 15mo
AD
appeals_deskTL3Regular25 Apr 2025#17

Sample size calculations is well covered in the tag pages, and the older discussions are better than the recent ones because they were argued out properly. Worth twenty minutes before adding to this one.

0 likes 15mo
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y.rahimiTL228 Apr 2025#18
preregistered, post #15: Where I part company with post #11, and it is a narrow parting. Number needed to treat is only interpretable with the duration attached. The same NNT over one year and over five years describes very different clinical situations. Go to post

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

Adding the caveat now so it does not have to be extracted later.

30 likes in reply to #15 15mo
LI
l.ibarraTL2Regular30 Apr 2025#19

I would keep Sample size calculations and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly.

0 likes 15mo
AK
a.kirchnerTL22 May 2025#20

The practical version of Sample size calculations is three sentences long. The rigorous version is three pages and reaches the same conclusion with the conditions attached.

20 likes 15mo
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WickramasingheTL2Member5 May 2025#21

Taking post #20 at face value and following it one step further.

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

Take the reasoning and check the arithmetic; I do not always get it right.

0 likes 15mo
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w.moreauTL27 May 2025#22

I have three months of notes on Sample size calculations and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight.

0 likes 15mo
TS
taper_shiftTL3Regular9 May 2025#23
y.rahimi, post #18: A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers. Adding the caveat now so it does not have to be extracted later. Go to post

Seconded. It reads as careful rather than confident, which is the right register.

4 likes in reply to #18 15mo
BJ
b.jansenTL211 May 2025#24

I read post #22 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Second-hand on Sample size calculations, so weight it accordingly — someone whose method I trust told me this and I have not verified it myself.

13 likes 15mo
BP
baseline_peakTL2Member14 May 2025 · edited#25

Building on post #24 rather than restating it.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

I looked this up rather than remembered it, which is the right order.

0 likes 14mo
JS
j.silvaTL216 May 2025#26

Post #22 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Sample size calculations has a well-known answer and a correct answer, and the interesting work is establishing that they are the same. Nobody has done that here yet.

2 likes 14mo
MS
m.stephanopoulosTL3Regular18 May 2025#27
l.ibarra, post #19: I would keep Sample size calculations and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly. Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

8 likes in reply to #19 14mo
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z.iyerTL220 May 2025#28

Reframing Sample size calculations slightly, because I think the disagreement is about the question rather than the answer. If the question is "does it happen", yes. If it is "how often", nobody here knows.

19 likes 14mo
VS
vial_slopeTL3Regular22 May 2025#29

A note on how Sample size calculations gets discussed rather than on Sample size calculations itself: the confident posts get the replies and the careful ones get ignored, and the careful ones have been right more often.

7 likes 14mo
VM
v.malinowskiTL224 May 2025#30
b.jansen, post #24: I read post #22 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Second-hand on Sample size calculations, so weight it accordingly — someone whose method I trust told me this and I have not verified it myself. Go to post

On post #26 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size.

That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many.

4 likes in reply to #24 14mo