The Peptide CommonsEst. May 2024
Independent. We sell nothing and are affiliated with no manufacturer or pharmacy. Every moderation action is logged in public
Analytics · Mass spectrometry · continued

Distinguishing a deletion sequence by mass alone posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

IB
i.boatengTL27 Feb 2025#61

Mass error in parts per million is (observed minus theoretical) divided by theoretical, times a million. On a high-resolution instrument a low single-digit figure is unremarkable and expected.

Anyone who has looked at this more carefully, please correct the record.

1 like 18mo
SS
steady_stateTL3Regular8 Feb 2025#62

Combining a chromatographic result with a mass result is genuinely orthogonal confirmation. Either alone leaves a specific class of problem invisible, and the two classes do not overlap much.

That has held every time I have looked, which is not the same as always.

0 likes 18mo
SO
se.okaforTL28 Feb 2025#63

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

22 likes 18mo
SB
sharps_binTL2Regular8 Feb 2025 · edited#64
crossref_check, post #34: Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct. It is a small point and it changes the answer, which is an awkward combination. Go to post

Useful. I had the fact and not the reason, which turns out to be the important half.

10 likes in reply to #34 18mo
GA
g.amankwahTL28 Feb 2025#65

Post #61 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

That holds under the stated conditions and I have stated them.

0 likes 18mo
OF
outline_firstTL3Wiki editor9 Feb 2025#66

Sample preparation for mass spectrometry can itself introduce modifications, particularly oxidation. A finding at trace level may be telling you about the preparation rather than the material.

Same conclusion as the reply above, reached differently, which is mildly reassuring.

31 likes 18mo
DB
da.bakkerTL29 Feb 2025#67
erratum_file, post #43: Thank you — that answers what I came here to find out. Go to post

I would be cautious about generalising from the distinguishing a deletion sequence example above. It is a good example. It is one example.

16 likes in reply to #43 18mo
CT
cannula_traceTL3Regular9 Feb 2025#68
e.kuipers, post #29: Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected. One of those cases where knowing the mechanism does not help the decision. Go to post

A mass match establishes that the measured mass is consistent with the proposed composition. It does not establish purity, sequence order, or the absence of an isomer, and all three are frequently claimed from it.

6 likes in reply to #29 18mo
PF
p.fontaineTL210 Feb 2025#69
t.kulkarni, post #36: Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass. It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one. Go to post

Positional isomers and epimers are mass-identical. Any argument that a mass result rules them out is wrong, and it is the commonest overclaim in this subcategory.

0 likes in reply to #36 18mo
B
BirkelandTL3Regular10 Feb 2025#70

The arithmetic in post #69 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Second-hand on distinguishing a deletion sequence, so weight it accordingly — someone whose method I trust told me this and I have not verified it myself.

23 likes 18mo
JN
j.nwosuTL210 Feb 2025#71
n.duarte, post #31: Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy. Reading it again, the caveat matters more than the finding. Go to post

Adding the measurement that post #68 says would settle it.

Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected.

That is where I would start, not where I would stop.

3 likes in reply to #31 18mo
AK
a.kowalskiTL210 Feb 2025#72
endpoint_line, post #47: I read post #44 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this… Go to post

Post #70 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

Happy to be the one who is wrong here if it settles the question.

11 likes in reply to #47 18mo
SC
s.cardosoTL211 Feb 2025 · edited#73

An honest declaration on distinguishing a deletion sequence: I have a prior here and it is strong enough that you should weight what I say downward. Stating it rather than hiding it.

24 likes 18mo
BP
b.petrovTL211 Feb 2025#74

Deamidation adds approximately one dalton and produces a species that frequently elutes very close to the parent. It is the hardest common impurity to see chromatographically and the easiest to see by mass.

0 likes 18mo
MY
m.yilmazTL211 Feb 2025#75
customs_ledger, post #40: The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had. I have kept the units in throughout, for the obvious reason. Go to post

Thank you for the correction. I would rather find out here than later.

1 like in reply to #40 18mo
GI
g.ibarraTL211 Feb 2025#76

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

7 likes 18mo
CH
ca.haddadTL212 Feb 2025#77

Monoisotopic and average mass are different numbers and both appear on documents. At this molecular weight the difference is a few daltons, which is more than the tolerance being claimed.

17 likes 17mo
G
GDashwoodTL3Regular12 Feb 2025#78

Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct.

This is the version I would want a new member to read first.

33 likes 17mo
EC
e.coelhoTL212 Feb 2025#79

I think the distinguishing a deletion sequence question is answerable and has not been answered, which is a more optimistic position than most of this thread.

0 likes 17mo
FA
f.abrahamsenTL2Member12 Feb 2025#80
t.kulkarni, post #36: Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass. It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one. Go to post

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

3 likes in reply to #36 17mo
NS
no.silvaTL213 Feb 2025#81

On post #79 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Summarising the distinguishing a deletion sequence thread so far, since it is long and the answer is buried: the first reply has the method, the fourth has the correction to it, and the rest is people agreeing at length.

0 likes 17mo
PP
peak_purityTL3Analytical chemist13 Feb 2025#82

Picking up post #79: that is the part I would want checked first.

Response in electrospray is not proportional to abundance across different species. Using peak intensities from a mass spectrum to estimate proportions is a mistake that looks reasonable.

0 likes 17mo
RZ
r.zielinskiTL213 Feb 2025#83

Tandem mass spectrometry with fragmentation gives sequence information that intact mass cannot. It is the analysis that would actually confirm identity, and it is rarely supplied.

Happy to expand any of that if it is the useful part.

14 likes 17mo
RA
r.aldana_pharmdTL4Pharmacist13 Feb 2025#84
e.coelho, post #79: I think the distinguishing a deletion sequence question is answerable and has not been answered, which is a more optimistic position than most of this thread. Go to post

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

Worth checking against a second source before it gets quoted onward.

5 likes in reply to #79 17mo
CB
c.boatengTL214 Feb 2025#85
a.cabrera, post #44: Narrowing post #42, because the general version has more than one answer. Sample preparation for mass spectrometry can itself introduce modifications, particularly oxidation. A finding at trace level may be telling you about the preparation rather than the material. That distinction has done more work for me than anything else in this… Go to post

Reading back through, this was answered upthread and I missed it. My fault.

0 likes in reply to #44 17mo
MP
mira.patelTL4 Admin14 Feb 2025#86

This follows post #83 rather than contradicting it.

An acylated peptide has a mass that reflects the modification, so comparing against the mass of the unmodified backbone gives a mismatch that is not an error.

28 likes 17mo
RL
r.laurentTL214 Feb 2025 · edited#87

Resolution and mass accuracy are different specifications. An instrument can resolve two species and still assign their masses imprecisely, and the reverse is also possible.

Someone will know this better than I do and I hope they say so.

9 likes 17mo
AA
a.adebayoTL214 Feb 2025#88

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

That is all the detail I have. Someone else will have more.

2 likes 17mo
BF
b.fonsecaTL215 Feb 2025#89

The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had.

This is the sort of thing that ought to be settled and apparently is not.

0 likes 17mo
PM
p.marchettiTL215 Feb 2025#90