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Analytics · Method validation

When to suspect the method rather than the sample

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Solved by a.kravchenko in post #8
Robustness: the method gives consistent results when minor parameters vary. Tested by deliberately varying pH, temperature, flow rate, and mobile phase composition within reasonable ranges and demonstrating that results stay within acceptance. If that reads as pedantic, it is, and it has saved me twice.

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MM
methods_marginTL3Regular4 Aug 2024#1

When to suspect the method rather than the sample — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked.

Two reports on the same lot, and I would like help deciding whether they disagree.

The first gives 96.6% by reversed-phase at 220 nm. The second gives 98.6% by a method described only as HPLC. Neither states the integration convention.

My instinct is that this gap is method rather than material. I would like that instinct checked by somebody who does this for a living rather than confirmed by somebody who agrees with me.

49 likes 2y
CC
c.castellanosTL210 Aug 2024#2

The most useful single question about a method: what would it fail to detect? Every method has an answer and few documents state it.

If it helps: the failure mode here is usually boring rather than dramatic.

0 likes 2y
YM
y.mensahTL3Wiki editor15 Aug 2024#3

Documented validation is what separates a number from an opinion expressed numerically. That is the whole reason to ask for the procedure identifier rather than the method name.

4 likes 23mo
RM
r.mensahTL219 Aug 2024#4
c.castellanos, post #2: The most useful single question about a method: what would it fail to detect? Every method has an answer and few documents state it. If it helps: the failure mode here is usually boring rather than dramatic. Go to post

Coming back to post #2, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

The limit of quantitation determines what the impurity table can honestly contain. Peaks below it can be reported as detected and cannot be reported as a number.

12 likes in reply to #2 23mo
BJ
b.jankowiakTL3Regular22 Aug 2024#5

Understood, and I withdraw the assumption I opened with.

19 likes 23mo
VR
v.rautioTL226 Aug 2024#6

Precision and repeatability: within-run and between-run variability of the method. Acceptance criterion is typically a relative standard deviation of ≤2% for area measurements.

The evidence for this is thinner than the way I have phrased it suggests.

0 likes 23mo
B
BirkelandTL3Regular29 Aug 2024#7

The limit of quantitation determines what the impurity table can honestly contain. Peaks below it can be reported as detected and cannot be reported as a number.

A modest claim, modestly supported.

2 likes 23mo
AK
a.kravchenkoTL2 Solution2 Sep 2024#8
y.mensah, post #3: Documented validation is what separates a number from an opinion expressed numerically. That is the whole reason to ask for the procedure identifier rather than the method name. Go to post

Robustness: the method gives consistent results when minor parameters vary. Tested by deliberately varying pH, temperature, flow rate, and mobile phase composition within reasonable ranges and demonstrating that results stay within acceptance.

If that reads as pedantic, it is, and it has saved me twice.

8 likes in reply to #3 23mo
CI
citation_indexTL2Member5 Sep 2024#9

Forced degradation studies: deliberately stress the material with acid, base, oxidant, heat, light to generate degradation products and demonstrate that the method can separate them from the parent peak. Acceptance is that the method is stability-indicating.

0 likes 23mo
ER
e.roosTL28 Sep 2024#10

Post #6 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Range: the concentration range over which the method has been validated. Going outside the validated range is going outside the method's demonstrated performance.

1 like 23mo
AK
a.kowalczykTL2Regular11 Sep 2024#11
methods_margin, post #1: When to suspect the method rather than the sample — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked. Two reports on the same lot, and I would like help deciding whether they disagree. The first gives 96.6% by reversed-phase at 220 nm. The second gives 98.6% by a method described only as HPLC.… Go to post

Where I part company with post #9, and it is a narrow parting.

Where a pharmacopoeial monograph exists, a method that follows it inherits a great deal of assurance. Almost nothing discussed here has one.

0 likes in reply to #1 23mo
CH
c.haddadTL214 Sep 2024#12
PN
plateau_notesTL2Regular17 Sep 2024#13

Range and working range are different things and a certificate rarely distinguishes them. The relevant one is the range over which this particular sample was measured.

I would be glad to be shown a cleaner way of putting this.

7 likes 22mo
NV
n.vukovicTL220 Sep 2024#14

Reporting a result to more decimal places than the method's precision supports is a small dishonesty that appears everywhere. A method with a two per cent relative standard deviation does not support a figure quoted to a hundredth.

1 like 22mo
DB
d.bramleyTL3Regular22 Sep 2024#15

An independent laboratory's method being different from the supplier's is not a discrepancy. It becomes one only when the results differ by more than both methods' demonstrated precision.

26 likes 22mo
AN
a.nascimentoTL225 Sep 2024 · edited#16
a.kowalczyk, post #11: Where I part company with post #9, and it is a narrow parting. Where a pharmacopoeial monograph exists, a method that follows it inherits a great deal of assurance. Almost nothing discussed here has one. Go to post

Confirming post #13 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Specificity: the method can distinguish the intended compound from related impurities and degradation products. Tested by comparing results on pure compounds, mixtures of compounds, and degraded samples.

12 likes in reply to #11 22mo
KB
k.brandl_deTL3Translator · DE28 Sep 2024#17

No notes. Posting so the count is not one.

4 likes 22mo
MA
m.almeidaTL230 Sep 2024#18

The distinction between a qualified instrument and a validated method is worth keeping. Both are needed and they fail in different ways.

The mechanism is plausible, which is not the same as established.

0 likes 22mo
EF
erratum_fileTL3Regular3 Oct 2024#19

Accuracy: the method measures what you intend to measure. For purity methods, this is tested by spike-and-recover experiments: add a known amount of impurity to a sample and measure whether you recover the added amount.

I am not the right person to answer the follow-up to this.

19 likes 22mo
HJ
h.jansenTL26 Oct 2024#20
c.haddad, post #12: Post #9 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Validation is compound-specific and matrix-specific. A method validated for one peptide is a starting point for another and not a validated method for it. A single observation, in a thread that deserves better than single observations. Go to post

The limit of quantitation determines what the impurity table can honestly contain. Peaks below it can be reported as detected and cannot be reported as a number.

That is the version I use. It may not be the version that is correct.

8 likes in reply to #12 22mo
PF
p.friskTL28 Oct 2024#21
erratum_file, post #19: Accuracy: the method measures what you intend to measure. For purity methods, this is tested by spike-and-recover experiments: add a known amount of impurity to a sample and measure whether you recover the added amount. I am not the right person to answer the follow-up to this. Go to post

Post #18 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Linearity across the working range is a routine demonstration and it constrains how far a result can be extrapolated. A method linear from 80 to 120 per cent of nominal says nothing about a sample at ten per cent.

0 likes in reply to #19 22mo
ID
integrator_draftTL3Regular11 Oct 2024#22

Where I part company with post #20, and it is a narrow parting.

Robustness testing deliberately varies the parameters most likely to drift — organic percentage, pH, temperature, flow — and shows the result does not. It is the part of validation that predicts whether a method will transfer.

The answer changed when I changed how I was measuring, which was informative.

4 likes 22mo
FP
f.petrovTL213 Oct 2024#23

Specificity is the first question: does the method separate the analyte from everything reasonably expected to be present? A method that has not been challenged with its own degradation products has not answered it.

The right answer here may simply be that it has not been measured.

18 likes 21mo
VM
v.milanoviTL3Regular16 Oct 2024#24

The limit of quantitation determines what the impurity table can honestly contain. Peaks below it can be reported as detected and cannot be reported as a number.

The short answer was in the first line; everything after is the working.

0 likes 21mo
LC
l.cabreraTL218 Oct 2024#25

Transfer between laboratories: a method can be transferred from one lab to another, but the receiving lab needs to demonstrate that they can achieve the same performance. This requires comparative testing and sometimes small method refinements.

0 likes 21mo
AS
a.stephanopoulosTL3Regular21 Oct 2024#26

I had written a reply contradicting post #24 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Why two laboratories may disagree: after validating the same method, they may still report different purity on the same sample due to integration differences, column age differences, subtle differences in mobile phase pH or temperature. This is normal and not a sign that one is wrong.

2 likes 21mo
KB
ka.batistaTL223 Oct 2024 · edited#27

Picking up post #26: that is the part I would want checked first.

Limits of detection and quantitation: LOD is the lowest concentration that produces a signal above background. LOQ is the lowest concentration at which the method meets precision and accuracy acceptance criteria. Both are determined empirically.

12 likes 21mo
SF
sterile_fileTL3Regular25 Oct 2024#28
k.brandl_de, post #17: No notes. Posting so the count is not one. Go to post

That matches what I have seen, for whatever a single anecdote is worth.

26 likes in reply to #17 21mo
MS
m.silvaTL228 Oct 2024#29
b.jankowiak, post #5: Understood, and I withdraw the assumption I opened with. Go to post

Adding thanks rather than a view. I do not have a view worth the space.

4 likes in reply to #5 21mo
VS
v.salgadoTL230 Oct 2024#30

A method that reports the same number for every lot is worth a second look. Real processes vary, and a total absence of variation is a statement about the measurement rather than the process.

That is what the documentation says. What happens in practice is usually close.

11 likes 21mo