The Peptide CommonsEst. May 2024
Independent. We sell nothing and are affiliated with no manufacturer or pharmacy. Every moderation action is logged in public
Evidence · Study critique · continued

A well-designed study with a badly written abstract posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

BT
baseline_tableTL2Member18 Apr 2025#31

Coming back to post #27, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Well-designed study is well covered in the tag pages, and the older discussions are better than the recent ones because they were argued out properly. Worth twenty minutes before adding to this one.

16 likes 15mo
AM
a.molnarTL219 Apr 2025#32

Post #31 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Criticism is more useful when it is narrower. "The trial answers a different question from the one being asked" is actionable; "the trial is flawed" is not.

It is a small point and it changes the answer, which is an awkward combination.

6 likes 15mo
DM
d.magalhesTL2Member19 Apr 2025 · edited#33
m.yildiz, post #21: Post #18 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Second-hand on well-designed study, so weight it accordingly — someone whose method I trust told me this and I have not verified it myself. Go to post

Grateful for the specificity. Vague answers to this question are what sent me looking.

0 likes in reply to #21 15mo
AW
am.wikstromTL220 Apr 2025#34
h.koodziej, post #14: This follows post #13 rather than contradicting it. A note on scope: what I am saying about well-designed study applies to the case in the first post and I would not extend it further without checking. Go to post

My experience of well-designed study contradicts the reply above. I am posting it as a data point rather than as a refutation, because one person's experience is exactly that.

32 likes in reply to #14 15mo
TF
taper_fileTL3Regular21 Apr 2025#35

Attrition is the failure mode most likely to invalidate a result and the least likely to be discussed. Differential attrition between arms is the specific thing to look for.

11 likes 15mo
HK
h.krastevTL221 Apr 2025#36

Confirming post #35 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Answering the well-designed study question as asked, then the question I think is meant. As asked: yes, with the qualification below. As meant: it depends on how the first measurement was taken.

3 likes 15mo
D
DSakamotoTL3Regular22 Apr 2025#37
v.milanovi, post #20: Narrowing post #18, because the general version has more than one answer. I changed my mind about well-designed study after someone here asked me for the source and I could not produce one. That is worth saying out loud because it is the ordinary way it happens. Go to post

Post #35 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

On well-designed study: the maintained page in the documentation commons covers the general case with citations and a review date, which is more reliable than any reply here including this one.

0 likes in reply to #20 15mo
AV
a.villalobosTL222 Apr 2025#38

A run-in period that excludes non-responders before randomisation changes what the trial is estimating. It is legitimate design and it must be stated in any summary.

It is worth checking rather than assuming, which costs nothing.

24 likes 15mo
AW
a.westergaardTL3Regular23 Apr 2025 · edited#39

The question underneath well-designed study is usually "how would I tell?" rather than "what is true?", and that one has a method attached to it.

Write down what you would expect to see under each hypothesis before you collect anything. If they predict the same observation, collecting it will not help.

7 likes 15mo
SO
sa.okonkwoTL223 Apr 2025#40
e.mbeki, post #8: This is the answer, and the reason it is the answer is the more useful part. Go to post

Sensible. I would want the same detail before I acted on it either.

1 like in reply to #8 15mo
RM
r.mensaTL224 Apr 2025#41

Speaking only to well-designed study as I have actually seen it, rather than as it is usually described: the effect is real, it is smaller than the thread suggests, and the variance between people is larger than the effect.

32 likes 15mo
MD
m.dalgaardTL3Regular24 Apr 2025#42
g.tanaka, post #7: Narrowing post #4, because the general version has more than one answer. The number people quote for well-designed study is a central estimate presented without its interval, and the interval is wide enough that the estimate is nearly uninformative on its own. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #38 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Building consensus on which criticisms matter: if everyone agrees that the sample size is small but only you think that affects the conclusion, maybe your criticism is more idiosyncratic. That does not make it wrong but it is worth noticing.

0 likes in reply to #7 15mo
AJ
a.jansenTL225 Apr 2025#43

Fair, and the limits you put on it are the part I will remember.

3 likes 15mo
TD
titration_diaryTL3Regular26 Apr 2025 · edited#44

The useful distinction on well-designed study is between what was measured and what was inferred from it. Both end up in the same sentence and only one of them has error bars.

11 likes 15mo
IG
i.guerreroTL226 Apr 2025#45

Two claims get bundled together under well-designed study and they need separating. The descriptive one — this is what was observed — is usually well supported. The causal one — this is why — usually is not.

Almost every disagreement in threads like this one dissolves once you say which of the two you are making.

24 likes 15mo
GT
g.tanakaTL327 Apr 2025#46
MM
m.mwangiTL227 Apr 2025#47
l.ferreira, post #13: Worth separating two things that post #9 runs together. Hold a trial to the standard something could actually have met. A criticism that no achievable design could have answered is a criticism of the field rather than of the paper. Filing this under things that are true until someone shows me otherwise. Go to post

The arithmetic in post #44 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Reporting bias within a paper — a result in a figure that is absent from the abstract — is checkable and is worth checking when the claim matters.

1 like in reply to #13 15mo
DS
d.szymanskiTL3Wiki editor28 Apr 2025#48

On well-designed study, the part that usually goes wrong is that the question is asked as though it has one answer. It has a range, and the width of the range is the interesting bit.

If you can post the two or three numbers you are working from, several people here will check the arithmetic rather than argue about the conclusion.

7 likes 15mo
EN
e.ndiayeTL228 Apr 2025#49

Two things can be true about well-designed study at once: the mechanism is plausible and the evidence for the size of the effect is thin. Most of the argument here is people defending the first against attacks on the second.

0 likes 15mo
K
KAnderssonTL3Regular29 Apr 2025#50

A criticism that would apply equally to every trial in the field is worth stating once and is not a reason to discount a particular paper.

This is the version I would want a new member to read first.

3 likes 15mo
SD
s.demirTL229 Apr 2025#51

Agreed, and I will stop repeating the version of this I had been repeating.

22 likes 15mo
LP
l.parkinsonTL2Member30 Apr 2025 · edited#52

Well-designed study is a good example of a question where the honest answer is boring and the interesting answers are unsupported. I would go with boring.

10 likes 15mo
MN
ma.nascimentoTL230 Apr 2025#53
p.frisk, post #19: Statistical significance and clinical importance are different and both are needed. A significant difference below the minimal important difference is a real finding of no practical consequence. Go to post

Post #49 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Generalisability and validity are separate axes. A trial can be internally impeccable and still tell you nothing about the person asking.

3 likes in reply to #19 15mo
CP
citation_peakTL3Regular1 May 2025#54

What I want from this well-designed study thread is the list of things that would need to be true for the claim to hold. If we can write that list, we can check it.

0 likes 15mo
KK
k.karlsenTL21 May 2025#55

Statistical significance and clinical importance are different and both are needed. A significant difference below the minimal important difference is a real finding of no practical consequence.

16 likes 15mo
EL
endpoint_lineTL3Regular2 May 2025#56

Posting my well-designed study numbers with the method attached so they can be discounted properly. Uncontrolled, unblinded, and collected by someone who wanted a particular answer.

6 likes 15mo
ID
i.dumitruTL22 May 2025#57
e.mwangi, post #15: A criticism that would apply equally to every trial in the field is worth stating once and is not a reason to discount a particular paper. Go to post

Post #53 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Two questions I would want answered before drawing anything from the well-designed study data above: how were the cases selected, and what happened to the ones that dropped out.

1 like in reply to #15 15mo
OP
o.pasqualeTL1Member3 May 2025#58
m.ilunga, post #2: Reporting bias within a paper — a result in a figure that is absent from the abstract — is checkable and is worth checking when the claim matters. Go to post

Building on post #57 rather than restating it.

Per-protocol and intention-to-treat analyses answer different questions and neither is the honest one by default. Reporting both is the practice worth insisting on.

0 likes in reply to #2 15mo
DN
d.ndiayeTL23 May 2025#59

I had written a reply contradicting post #57 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Reading this well-designed study thread as someone who came in with a fixed view: the third and seventh replies moved me and the confident ones did not.

0 likes 15mo
LA
l.aaltonenTL3Regular4 May 2025#60
k.farrugia, post #22: Where I part company with post #21, and it is a narrow parting. Building consensus on which criticisms matter: if everyone agrees that the sample size is small but only you think that affects the conclusion, maybe your criticism is more idiosyncratic. That does not make it wrong but it is worth noticing. Go to post

Appreciated. The plain phrasing does more work here than a longer post would.

21 likes in reply to #22 15mo