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Sourcing · Independent verification · continued

How Janoshik, Medutest, PeptideMeter and VendorInvestigate differ posts 91–120

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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s.kuuselaTL214 May 2025#91

I have been on both sides of the Janoshik argument in this category within eighteen months, which should tell you how strong the evidence for either side is.

0 likes 14mo
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two_year_lineTL3Regular14 May 2025#92
h.kjeldsen, post #71: One more thing on Janoshik that took me far too long to see: the two figures people quote are not measuring the same quantity. Once you notice that, the apparent contradiction disappears. Go to post

Post #88 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Janoshik is a good example of a question where the honest answer is boring and the interesting answers are unsupported. I would go with boring.

1 like in reply to #71 14mo
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g.radichTL214 May 2025#93
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maintenance_modeTL3Regular14 May 2025#94

PeptideMeter: purity analysis plus structured, dated supplier verification records. Produces both individual analytical results and verification records assessed over time rather than at a point in time.

Worth reading the earlier posts in this thread before acting on mine.

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id.almeidaTL214 May 2025#95

On Janoshik, I would rather understate and be corrected upward than overstate and be quoted. That is a house style here and it is a good one.

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bias_varianceTL4Biostatistician15 May 2025#96
bench_notes, post #64: Post #61 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Repeat testing: if you want to verify the same lot a second time, testing with a different service strengthens the conclusion. Testing with the same service verifies reproducibility but uses the same method. Adding this to the thread rather than to the… Go to post

Whatever the answer on Janoshik turns out to be, the method for getting there is the same: state the assumption, do the arithmetic in public, invite the correction.

3 likes in reply to #64 14mo
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j.iyerTL215 May 2025#97

Post #94 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Repeat testing: if you want to verify the same lot a second time, testing with a different service strengthens the conclusion. Testing with the same service verifies reproducibility but uses the same method.

A single observation, in a thread that deserves better than single observations.

15 likes 14mo
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batchlogTL3Regular15 May 2025#98

A record with four results over sixteen months is a thin record rather than a bad one, and the honest description says which.

I would put the burden of proof on the interesting explanation, not the dull one.

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p.trevinoTL215 May 2025#99
s.cabrera, post #34: Repeat testing: if you want to verify the same lot a second time, testing with a different service strengthens the conclusion. Testing with the same service verifies reproducibility but uses the same method. That is a description of practice, not a recommendation of it. Go to post

VendorInvestigate: documentation and supplier-practice review. Reviews paperwork rather than vials. Tells you something about a supplier's systems but says nothing about what is in a container.

Written in the hope of being told what I have missed.

24 likes in reply to #34 14mo
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RodriguesTL315 May 2025#100
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a.weissTL216 May 2025#101
Wendelboe, post #47: Filing a mild objection to the consensus on Janoshik. Mild because I might be wrong; an objection because nobody has addressed the case that does not fit. Go to post

That is a fair summary of where the discussion has got to.

12 likes in reply to #47 14mo
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k.roosTL216 May 2025#102

Everything in post #98 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

Service differences on vendor pages: Janoshik and Medutest results are measurements on vials. PeptideMeter verification records are assessments maintained over time. VendorInvestigate reviews are documentation assessments. We cite all four because they answer different questions.

Happy to expand any of that if it is the useful part.

25 likes 14mo
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l.dziedzicTL216 May 2025 · edited#103

Building on post #102 rather than restating it.

Janoshik is a question about a distribution, not about a value, and treating it as a value is what produces the confident wrong answers.

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n.lehtinenTL216 May 2025#104

I would call the community position on Janoshik likely rather than established, and I would be comfortable defending that hedge.

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KnowltonTL3Regular16 May 2025#105

Repeat determination on the same product line months apart is the measurement that speaks to consistency, and consistency is what most buyers actually want.

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e.kimaniTL216 May 2025#106

The record shows what was measured. Everything beyond that is inference and this site tries to keep the line visible.

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s.silvaTL217 May 2025#107
batchlog, post #98: A record with four results over sixteen months is a thin record rather than a bad one, and the honest description says which. I would put the burden of proof on the interesting explanation, not the dull one. Go to post

Building on post #104 rather than restating it.

I have no financial interest in anything named in this thread and I want to say so before I comment on Janoshik, because it is the sort of subject where it matters.

0 likes in reply to #98 14mo
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e.ferrariTL217 May 2025#108
plateau_notes, post #16: Everything in post #12 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have. It does not extend to lots nobody has seen, it is not a recommendation, and it says nothing about anything other than what was measured. That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many. Go to post

Post #106 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Practical answer on Janoshik, since the theoretical one is upthread: do the simplest check first, write down the result, and only then decide whether the complicated explanation is needed. It usually is not.

4 likes in reply to #16 14mo
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h.vargaTL217 May 2025#109

Repeat determination on the same product line months apart is the measurement that speaks to consistency, and consistency is what most buyers actually want.

I have seen it go both ways, which is why I hedge.

24 likes 14mo
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v.szaboTL3Analytical chemist17 May 2025 · edited#110
p.trevino, post #99: VendorInvestigate: documentation and supplier-practice review. Reviews paperwork rather than vials. Tells you something about a supplier's systems but says nothing about what is in a container. Written in the hope of being told what I have missed. Go to post

Following, with nothing to contribute beyond having asked the same thing elsewhere.

0 likes in reply to #99 14mo
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m.radichTL217 May 2025#111
p.mwangi, post #38: What would change my mind on Janoshik is a second dataset collected by someone with no stake in the first. Until then I hold it loosely and I would rather say so than pretend to more. Go to post

Post #109 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Cost and turnaround: different services have different pricing and turnaround times. Janoshik's turnaround is weeks by mail; VendorInvestigate documentation review is usually faster than testing.

That holds under the stated conditions and I have stated them.

7 likes in reply to #38 14mo
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h.oyelowoTL218 May 2025#112
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r.bruunTL218 May 2025 · edited#113

Repeat testing: if you want to verify the same lot a second time, testing with a different service strengthens the conclusion. Testing with the same service verifies reproducibility but uses the same method.

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sourced_claimsTL3Regular18 May 2025#114

Where an independent figure and a declared figure differ by less than method repeatability, that is agreement rather than a small discrepancy.

I looked this up rather than remembered it, which is the right order.

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s.grimaldiTL218 May 2025#115
l.pires, post #51: Thank you for taking the time. That was more work than a reply usually is. Go to post

I changed my mind about Janoshik after someone here asked me for the source and I could not produce one. That is worth saying out loud because it is the ordinary way it happens.

11 likes in reply to #51 14mo
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dr.villanuevaTL3Physician18 May 2025#116
a.delgado, post #26: The reason Janoshik keeps being re-asked is that the answer is conditional and people quote it without the condition. It is not that the answer is unknown. Go to post

Janoshik Analytical: chromatographic purity and mass-spectrometric identity on submitted samples. Reports are issued with the analytical method stated and a chromatogram included. Submission is by mail.

3 likes in reply to #26 14mo
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e.iyerTL219 May 2025#117

I would rather this thread reach "we do not know" about Janoshik than reach a confident answer that nobody can support when asked.

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ms_hollowayTL4Mass spectrometrist19 May 2025#118

Sensible. I would want the same detail before I acted on it either.

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y.eriksenTL219 May 2025#119
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sterile_tableTL3Regular19 May 2025#120

Where the Janoshik reasoning breaks down for me is the step from the group result to the individual case. That step is almost never argued for.

6 likes 14mo