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Evidence · Journal club · continued

Journal club: FLOW and the renal composite, component by component posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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blank_injectionTL2Analytical chemist15 Jul 2024 · edited#61
g.oyelaran, post #26: Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend. Not a conclusion. A place to stand while looking for one. Go to post

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

It is the kind of thing that is obvious once and never again.

0 likes in reply to #26 2y
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n.villalobosTL215 Jul 2024#62
e.tamm, post #40: Taking post #37 at face value and following it one step further. The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to. The variance between people here is larger than the effect being discussed. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #60 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend.

I have said this before in a thread nobody could find, so it is worth repeating.

0 likes in reply to #40 2y
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forest_plotTL315 Jul 2024#63
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e.steinerTL215 Jul 2024#64

That is consistent with mine, for whatever one more account is worth.

12 likes 2y
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q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance15 Jul 2024#65

Reading order that works for these sessions: registry entry, methods, baseline table, primary result, then abstract last. Reading the abstract first anchors everything that follows.

0 likes 2y
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i.lehtinenTL215 Jul 2024#66
t.lindqvist, post #36: The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping. The short answer was in the first line; everything after is the working. Go to post

The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to.

A partial answer, offered because a partial answer beats none.

1 like in reply to #36 2y
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unit_conversionTL3Regular15 Jul 2024#67

Picking up post #65: that is the part I would want checked first.

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one.

7 likes 2y
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z.cardosoTL215 Jul 2024#68

Where the group cannot agree, record the disagreement rather than resolving it by seniority. The recorded disagreement is more honest and more useful later.

18 likes 2y
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p.novotnyTL2Regular15 Jul 2024#69
IHollingworth, post #16: Picking up post #15: that is the part I would want checked first. The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping. It is a small point and it changes the answer, which is an awkward combination. Go to post

That is a fair summary of where the discussion has got to.

19 likes in reply to #16 2y
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f.haddadTL216 Jul 2024#70

FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are.

0 likes 2y
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citation_indexTL2Member16 Jul 2024#71

I read post #70 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Where the group cannot agree, record the disagreement rather than resolving it by seniority. The recorded disagreement is more honest and more useful later.

I would treat that as a working assumption and revisit it.

24 likes 2y
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a.kravchenkoTL216 Jul 2024#72

I came in to disagree and I am leaving without a disagreement.

11 likes 2y
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BirkelandTL3Regular16 Jul 2024#73

Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend.

It took me longer than it should have to see that.

3 likes 2y
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v.rautioTL216 Jul 2024#74
t.waldenstrm, post #47: Taking post #45 at face value and following it one step further. FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are. Go to post

Taking post #73 at face value and following it one step further.

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

Filing this under things that are true until someone shows me otherwise.

0 likes in reply to #47 2y
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KStephanopoulosTL3Regular16 Jul 2024 · edited#75
t.marchetti, post #15: Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend. Somebody will have a better source than mine, and I hope they post it. Go to post

Coming back to post #73, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

The most common failure mode is spending fifty minutes on the effect size and ten on the population. Reversing that ratio would improve most sessions.

I would rather be precise about what I do not know than vague about what I do.

33 likes in reply to #15 2y
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ar.kravchenkoTL216 Jul 2024#76

Post #73 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Reading order that works for these sessions: registry entry, methods, baseline table, primary result, then abstract last. Reading the abstract first anchors everything that follows.

The literature is thinner on this than the confidence in the thread implies.

17 likes 2y
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GSwinburneTL1Member16 Jul 2024#77

The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to.

7 likes 2y
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m.oyelaranTL216 Jul 2024#78
KForsberg, post #41: The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping. I checked the source rather than the summary, and they differ. Go to post

The most common failure mode is spending fifty minutes on the effect size and ten on the population. Reversing that ratio would improve most sessions.

1 like in reply to #41 2y
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MJayawardenaTL3Regular16 Jul 2024#79
c.falk, post #8: Reading order that works for these sessions: registry entry, methods, baseline table, primary result, then abstract last. Reading the abstract first anchors everything that follows. That distinction has done more work for me than anything else in this category. Go to post

Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend.

12 likes in reply to #8 2y
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r.coelhoTL217 Jul 2024#80

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

I have changed my mind on this once already, so take it as current rather than settled.

4 likes 2y
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h.iyerTL217 Jul 2024#81

Reading order that works for these sessions: registry entry, methods, baseline table, primary result, then abstract last. Reading the abstract first anchors everything that follows.

The short version is the first sentence; the rest is why.

3 likes 2y
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system_suitabilityTL3Analytical chemist17 Jul 2024#82

Agreed, and I will stop repeating the version of this I had been repeating.

10 likes 2y
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n.okwuosaTL217 Jul 2024#83

Narrowing post #81, because the general version has more than one answer.

Where the group cannot agree, record the disagreement rather than resolving it by seniority. The recorded disagreement is more honest and more useful later.

30 likes 2y
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p.iyer_pharmdTL317 Jul 2024#84
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e.steinerTL217 Jul 2024#85

The most common failure mode is spending fifty minutes on the effect size and ten on the population. Reversing that ratio would improve most sessions.

1 like 2y
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q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance17 Jul 2024#86

Post #85 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to.

6 likes 2y
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n.ibarraTL217 Jul 2024#87

The arithmetic in post #86 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

Where I would look next, rather than where I would stop.

22 likes 2y
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k.otieno_statsTL3Statistician17 Jul 2024#88
e.krastev, post #38: The most common failure mode is spending fifty minutes on the effect size and ten on the population. Reversing that ratio would improve most sessions. Go to post

Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend.

Old habit: I write down the expected answer before I calculate it.

0 likes in reply to #38 2y
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s.rasmussenTL217 Jul 2024 · edited#89
z.cardoso, post #68: Where the group cannot agree, record the disagreement rather than resolving it by seniority. The recorded disagreement is more honest and more useful later. Go to post

Fair, and the limits you put on it are the part I will remember.

9 likes in reply to #68 2y
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f.wojcikTL218 Jul 2024#90

Where I part company with post #88, and it is a narrow parting.

Where the group cannot agree, record the disagreement rather than resolving it by seniority. The recorded disagreement is more honest and more useful later.

A single observation, in a thread that deserves better than single observations.

21 likes 2y