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Evidence · Journal club · continued

Journal club: FLOW and the renal composite, component by component posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

PS
p.silvaTL211 Jul 2024#31
h.eriksen, post #4: Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend. I would rather say I do not know than round it up to an answer. Go to post

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

0 likes in reply to #4 2y
EK
e.kimaniTL211 Jul 2024#32

The most common failure mode is spending fifty minutes on the effect size and ten on the population. Reversing that ratio would improve most sessions.

I keep a log of this specifically because memory is unreliable about it.

0 likes 2y
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KnowltonTL3Regular12 Jul 2024#33

Coming back to post #30, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Where the group cannot agree, record the disagreement rather than resolving it by seniority. The recorded disagreement is more honest and more useful later.

Worth saying I have only my own numbers here, and n is small.

18 likes 2y
IB
i.brobergTL212 Jul 2024#34
t.marchetti, post #15: Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend. Somebody will have a better source than mine, and I hope they post it. Go to post

Post #33 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to.

7 likes in reply to #15 2y
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VThorvaldsenTL3Regular12 Jul 2024#35

Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend.

I have seen it go both ways, which is why I hedge.

0 likes 2y
TL
t.lindqvistTL212 Jul 2024#36

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

The short answer was in the first line; everything after is the working.

26 likes 2y
M
MSaarinenTL3Regular12 Jul 2024#37

I read post #33 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Reading order that works for these sessions: registry entry, methods, baseline table, primary result, then abstract last. Reading the abstract first anchors everything that follows.

13 likes 2y
EK
e.krastevTL212 Jul 2024 · edited#38
BDraganov, post #21: Post #20 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to. Go to post

The most common failure mode is spending fifty minutes on the effect size and ten on the population. Reversing that ratio would improve most sessions.

4 likes in reply to #21 2y
CN
cannula_notesTL2Member12 Jul 2024#39

Where the group cannot agree, record the disagreement rather than resolving it by seniority. The recorded disagreement is more honest and more useful later.

Written in the hope of being told what I have missed.

4 likes 2y
ET
e.tammTL212 Jul 2024#40

Taking post #37 at face value and following it one step further.

The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to.

The variance between people here is larger than the effect being discussed.

0 likes 2y
K
KForsbergTL2Member12 Jul 2024#41

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

I checked the source rather than the summary, and they differ.

0 likes 2y
KK
k.kimaniTL213 Jul 2024#42
l.sarkissian, post #18: The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to. Go to post

Understood. Thank you for being specific about the limits of it.

1 like in reply to #18 2y
L
LundqvistTL2Member13 Jul 2024#43

Building on post #41 rather than restating it.

Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend.

11 likes 2y
SH
s.hartmannTL213 Jul 2024#44

Reading order that works for these sessions: registry entry, methods, baseline table, primary result, then abstract last. Reading the abstract first anchors everything that follows.

That is the honest state of it as of this week.

25 likes 2y
M
MakinenTL2Member13 Jul 2024#45
a.westergaard, post #5: I will take the caveat as seriously as the claim, which is the point of putting it there. Go to post

The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to.

Marking that as an opinion rather than a finding.

0 likes in reply to #5 2y
JS
j.solbergTL213 Jul 2024#46
TW
t.waldenstrmTL2Member13 Jul 2024#47

Taking post #45 at face value and following it one step further.

FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are.

17 likes 2y
SR
s.radichTL213 Jul 2024#48

Post #44 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

The most common failure mode is spending fifty minutes on the effect size and ten on the population. Reversing that ratio would improve most sessions.

33 likes 2y
TP
t.pereiraTL213 Jul 2024#49

Seconded. It reads as careful rather than confident, which is the right register.

1 like 2y
FV
f.villalobosTL213 Jul 2024#50

The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping.

I would be glad to be shown a cleaner way of putting this.

7 likes 2y
MA
m.adeyemiTL214 Jul 2024#51

Everything in post #47 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

Sessions on negative or null results are consistently the most instructive and the hardest to get anyone to attend.

It cost nothing to check and would have cost something not to.

0 likes 2y
C
chromatogramTL414 Jul 2024#52
RP
r.petrovTL214 Jul 2024#53

Where the group cannot agree, record the disagreement rather than resolving it by seniority. The recorded disagreement is more honest and more useful later.

This is the sort of thing the wiki should carry and currently does not.

8 likes 2y
RI
retention_indexTL2Analytical chemist14 Jul 2024#54
IHollingworth, post #16: Picking up post #15: that is the part I would want checked first. The figures usually contain the finding and the text usually contains the interpretation. Separating them for the first twenty minutes is a discipline worth keeping. It is a small point and it changes the answer, which is an awkward combination. Go to post

The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to.

This is the sort of thing that ought to be settled and apparently is not.

2 likes in reply to #16 2y
YR
y.rahimiTL214 Jul 2024 · edited#55

FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are.

I would want to see it done twice before believing it once.

0 likes 2y
P
preregisteredTL3Research methods14 Jul 2024#56

Reading order that works for these sessions: registry entry, methods, baseline table, primary result, then abstract last. Reading the abstract first anchors everything that follows.

Reading it back, the second half matters more than the first.

20 likes 2y
AK
a.kirchnerTL214 Jul 2024#57

No disagreement from me. Posting only so the question does not look ignored.

5 likes 2y
AD
appeals_deskTL314 Jul 2024#58
VS
v.salgadoTL214 Jul 2024#59
MS
m.silvaTL215 Jul 2024#60

Adding the measurement that post #56 says would settle it.

The baseline characteristics table is the single most useful page for the questions that get asked here, because it tells you who the result applies to.

14 likes 2y