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Evidence · Trials

Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold?

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TD
titration_diaryTL3Regular9 Apr 2025#1

Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold? I have a specific reason for asking rather than idle curiosity, and the context is below.

Reading STEP 1 (N Engl J Med, 2021) for the population rather than the effect, which I have not done properly before.

The baseline table is more restrictive than the way the trial gets discussed here. Several of the questions in this category come from people who would not have been enrolled.

What is the honest way to describe what the trial says to somebody outside its population?

0 likes 16mo
EK
e.krastevTL210 Apr 2025#2

The first question about any trial is what it set out to estimate, not what it found. Once the estimand is on the table the rest of the discussion is tractable.

17 likes 16mo
V
VThorvaldsenTL3Regular10 Apr 2025#3

On the opening post — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Entry criteria, run-in periods and the self-selection of people willing to enter a multi-year trial all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought and it constrains generalisation.

It is the sort of thing that seems obvious in retrospect and was not at the time.

4 likes 16mo
IR
i.rasmussenTL211 Apr 2025#4

Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size.

The evidence for this is thinner than the way I have phrased it suggests.

0 likes 16mo
EM
e.mikkelsenTL2Member12 Apr 2025 · edited#5

An open-label trial is not worthless and its subjective endpoints deserve more scepticism than its objective ones. That is a graded judgement rather than a verdict.

0 likes 16mo
DN
d.nwosuTL212 Apr 2025#6
e.mikkelsen, post #5: An open-label trial is not worthless and its subjective endpoints deserve more scepticism than its objective ones. That is a graded judgement rather than a verdict. Go to post

Post #5 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

A comparator at less than its maximum licensed dose changes what a head-to-head result means. It does not invalidate the trial; it narrows the claim the trial supports.

24 likes in reply to #5 16mo
SP
s.poulsenTL3Regular13 Apr 2025#7

Composite endpoints should be read component by component. A composite driven entirely by its softest component is a different finding from one where the components move together.

I looked this up rather than remembered it, which is the right order.

7 likes 15mo
ET
e.tammTL213 Apr 2025#8

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

1 like 15mo
AW
a.weissTL214 Apr 2025#9

Safety findings from a trial powered for efficacy are underpowered by construction. Absence of a signal in that setting is weak evidence of absence.

Same conclusion as the reply above, reached differently, which is mildly reassuring.

18 likes 15mo
EF
e.ferrariTL214 Apr 2025#10

That is a fair summary of where the discussion has got to.

7 likes 15mo
DV
dr.villanuevaTL3Physician15 Apr 2025 · edited#11

Confirming post #9 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

10 likes 15mo
CC
ch.correiaTL215 Apr 2025#12

This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not.

23 likes 15mo
TH
TL4_HalvorsenTL4Leader · Journal club15 Apr 2025#13
a.weiss, post #9: Safety findings from a trial powered for efficacy are underpowered by construction. Absence of a signal in that setting is weak evidence of absence. Same conclusion as the reply above, reached differently, which is mildly reassuring. Go to post

Effect sizes in a trial population reflect adherence achieved under trial conditions, which is generally better than adherence outside them.

Reporting the observation and leaving the explanation open deliberately.

0 likes in reply to #9 15mo
RB
r.bruunTL216 Apr 2025#14

Post #13 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Nothing in a trial report is medical advice about an individual, and the gap between a population estimate and a person is exactly where clinical judgement lives.

That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many.

3 likes 15mo
SL
s.leclercTL4 Moderator16 Apr 2025#15

Post #14 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Registration before enrolment, with the primary endpoint declared, is what makes outcome switching detectable. Checking the registry against the paper takes five minutes and is worth doing.

Noting that I have skin in this question and have tried to discount for it.

16 likes 15mo
NS
n.silvaTL217 Apr 2025#16
s.poulsen, post #7: Composite endpoints should be read component by component. A composite driven entirely by its softest component is a different finding from one where the components move together. I looked this up rather than remembered it, which is the right order. Go to post

Where I part company with post #13, and it is a narrow parting.

Funding and trial conduct should be stated and are a weak predictor of anything on their own. Design quality is the stronger signal and it is checkable.

31 likes in reply to #7 15mo
MH
ms_hollowayTL4Mass spectrometrist17 Apr 2025#17
dr.villanueva, post #11: Confirming post #9 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person. A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different… Go to post

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

Happy to be the one who is wrong here if it settles the question.

1 like in reply to #11 15mo
YA
y.adebayoTL217 Apr 2025#18

A trial that answers a slightly different question from the one you have is the normal situation rather than a failure of the trial. The skill is describing the gap precisely.

That is what I would do. It may not be what is correct.

6 likes 15mo
KR
k.radichTL218 Apr 2025#19

Trial duration determines what can be observed. A weight-change trajectory at 40 weeks and at 72 weeks are different observations and both get quoted as the result.

That has held every time I have looked, which is not the same as always.

22 likes 15mo
JS
j.steinerTL218 Apr 2025#20

Reading the supplementary appendix is where most of the real information is, and it is where almost nobody goes. The baseline table alone answers half the generalisability questions asked here.

Anyone who has looked at this more carefully, please correct the record.

0 likes 15mo
RZ
ro.zielinskiTL219 Apr 2025#21

Everything in post #17 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

Not a conclusion. A place to stand while looking for one.

3 likes 15mo
SC
sourced_claimsTL3Regular19 Apr 2025#22

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

I have written this out at length because the short version keeps being misread.

0 likes 15mo
MR
m.radichTL219 Apr 2025#23

Reading back through, this was answered upthread and I missed it. My fault.

31 likes 15mo
HO
h.oyelowoTL2Regular20 Apr 2025#24
s.leclerc, post #15: Post #14 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Registration before enrolment, with the primary endpoint declared, is what makes outcome switching detectable. Checking the registry against the paper takes five minutes and is worth doing. Noting that I have skin in this question and have tried to discount for it. Go to post

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

16 likes in reply to #15 15mo
EI
e.iyerTL220 Apr 2025#25
TL4_Halvorsen, post #13: Effect sizes in a trial population reflect adherence achieved under trial conditions, which is generally better than adherence outside them. Reporting the observation and leaving the explanation open deliberately. Go to post

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

The general case is well covered; this is the awkward specific one.

6 likes in reply to #13 15mo
MH
ms_hollowayTL4Mass spectrometrist21 Apr 2025#26

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

1 like 15mo
SG
s.grimaldiTL221 Apr 2025#27

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

0 likes 15mo
DV
dr.villanuevaTL3Physician21 Apr 2025#28
ro.zielinski, post #21: Everything in post #17 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have. Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit. Not a conclusion. A place to stand while looking for… Go to post

Building on post #25 rather than restating it.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

If anyone has run this properly I would rather read that than my own guess.

22 likes in reply to #21 15mo
GB
g.bakkenTL222 Apr 2025#29
d.nwosu, post #6: Post #5 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. A comparator at less than its maximum licensed dose changes what a head-to-head result means. It does not invalidate the trial; it narrows the claim the trial supports. Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes in reply to #6 15mo
WT
week_threeTL122 Apr 2025#30