The Peptide CommonsEst. May 2024
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Sourcing · Independent verification · continued

Blind submission and why it changes minds posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

LM
lyophil_marginTL3Regular7 Aug 2024#31

Medutest: combined purity and identity reporting. Appears throughout vendor documentation. Where a submission has been blind we note it because blind results are worth more than self-selected ones.

The confident version of this sentence would be wrong, so here is the hedged one.

24 likes 2y
CB
c.balogunTL29 Aug 2024#32

Blind submission is well covered in the tag pages, and the older discussions are better than the recent ones because they were argued out properly. Worth twenty minutes before adding to this one.

0 likes 2y
KF
k.farrugiaTL3Regular10 Aug 2024 · edited#33
b.demir, post #25: A note on scope: what I am saying about blind submission applies to the case in the first post and I would not extend it further without checking. Go to post

Post #30 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

The reason blind submission keeps being re-asked is that the answer is conditional and people quote it without the condition. It is not that the answer is unknown.

3 likes in reply to #25 2y
RO
r.oyelaranTL211 Aug 2024#34
k.farrugia, post #33: Post #30 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. The reason blind submission keeps being re-asked is that the answer is conditional and people quote it without the condition. It is not that the answer is unknown. Go to post

It does not extend to lots nobody has seen, it is not a recommendation, and it says nothing about anything other than what was measured.

Worth reading the earlier posts in this thread before acting on mine.

11 likes in reply to #33 2y
JH
j.habermannTL3Regular13 Aug 2024#35

Understood, and I withdraw the assumption I opened with.

18 likes 23mo
DN
d.nwosuTL214 Aug 2024#36

On post #32 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

If someone has run blind submission properly I would rather read that than my own reconstruction of it. Posting mine only because the thread has gone quiet.

0 likes 23mo
EM
e.mikkelsenTL2Member15 Aug 2024#37
c.balogun, post #32: Blind submission is well covered in the tag pages, and the older discussions are better than the recent ones because they were argued out properly. Worth twenty minutes before adding to this one. Go to post

Agreed on blind submission, with one qualification that I think matters. The reasoning holds for the case as described. Change the starting assumption and it does not, and the starting assumption is the part nobody states.

1 like in reply to #32 23mo
AP
a.petrovTL217 Aug 2024#38

Repeat determination on the same product line months apart is the measurement that speaks to consistency, and consistency is what most buyers actually want.

I would put the burden of proof on the interesting explanation, not the dull one.

7 likes 23mo
SP
s.poulsenTL3Regular18 Aug 2024#39

Building on post #38 rather than restating it.

Small correction to my own earlier position on blind submission. I had the units the wrong way round, which changes the conclusion by an order of magnitude and therefore changes it entirely.

12 likes 23mo
EK
e.krastevTL219 Aug 2024#40

I would put moderate confidence on the mainstream reading of blind submission and no more. That is not scepticism for its own sake; it is where the sourcing actually stops.

25 likes 23mo
BN
bench_notesTL4 Moderator21 Aug 2024#41
policy_reader, post #7: I have no financial interest in anything named in this thread and I want to say so before I comment on blind submission, because it is the sort of subject where it matters. Go to post

The record shows what was measured. Everything beyond that is inference and this site tries to keep the line visible.

Worth saying I have only my own numbers here, and n is small.

18 likes in reply to #7 23mo
KP
k.perrinTL222 Aug 2024#42

Reframing blind submission slightly, because I think the disagreement is about the question rather than the answer. If the question is "does it happen", yes. If it is "how often", nobody here knows.

8 likes 23mo
RA
r.aldana_pharmdTL4Pharmacist23 Aug 2024#43

Adding what did not work for me on blind submission, since the failures never get written up and they are half the useful information.

2 likes 23mo
AV
a.vukovicTL224 Aug 2024#44

That is a fair summary of where the discussion has got to.

0 likes 23mo
RD
r.danquahTL226 Aug 2024#45
RV
r.villalobosTL227 Aug 2024 · edited#46

Blind sampling: submitting without the laboratory or seller knowing the source removes the two easiest ways for a result to be shaped: selective submission and selective reporting. The extra effort is worth it.

12 likes 23mo
KV
k.vanheckeTL228 Aug 2024#47

Coming back to post #46, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Repeat testing: if you want to verify the same lot a second time, testing with a different service strengthens the conclusion. Testing with the same service verifies reproducibility but uses the same method.

Written in the hope of being told what I have missed.

4 likes 23mo
KF
k.fonsecaTL229 Aug 2024#48
cannula_drift, post #23: Answering the question post #19 raises rather than the one it answers. The strongest argument against my own position on blind submission, stated as well as I can state it, since nobody else has yet. Go to post

Post #46 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

I have three months of notes on blind submission and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight.

0 likes in reply to #23 23mo
EF
e.ferreiraTL3Regular31 Aug 2024#49

Where the blind submission discussion usually stalls is that nobody wants to say "I do not know" and everyone is willing to say "it varies". Those are the same sentence with different clothes on.

0 likes 23mo
BK
b.kowalskiTL21 Sep 2024#50

Picking up post #49: that is the part I would want checked first.

It does not extend to lots nobody has seen, it is not a recommendation, and it says nothing about anything other than what was measured.

Not the whole picture, but the part of it I can speak to.

0 likes 23mo
SO
s.okonkwoTL22 Sep 2024#51

Where I would push back on the blind submission consensus is the confidence, not the direction. The direction looks right. The confidence is borrowed.

27 likes 23mo
CD
cohort_driftTL3Regular3 Sep 2024#52

Janoshik Analytical: chromatographic purity and mass-spectrometric identity on submitted samples. Reports are issued with the analytical method stated and a chromatogram included. Submission is by mail.

0 likes 23mo
MN
m.ndiayeTL25 Sep 2024#53

Post #52 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Blind submission looks different depending on whether you are reading the primary literature or the summaries of it, and the difference is not in our favour.

2 likes 23mo
ID
isotonic_driftTL1Member6 Sep 2024#54
no.silva, post #4: This follows post #3 rather than contradicting it. It does not extend to lots nobody has seen, it is not a recommendation, and it says nothing about anything other than what was measured. Go to post

Coming back to post #50, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

A record with four results over sixteen months is a thin record rather than a bad one, and the honest description says which.

Two people can read the same figure differently here and both be reasonable.

8 likes in reply to #4 23mo
ND
n.dziedzicTL27 Sep 2024#55

Trying to state the blind submission position in a way that someone who disagrees would recognise as fair, because I do not think the version in this thread passes that test.

0 likes 23mo
CN
c.niemelTL3Regular8 Sep 2024#56

Blind submission sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly.

0 likes 23mo
RC
r.chukwuTL29 Sep 2024#57
k.perrin, post #42: Reframing blind submission slightly, because I think the disagreement is about the question rather than the answer. If the question is "does it happen", yes. If it is "how often", nobody here knows. Go to post

Repeat determination on the same product line months apart is the measurement that speaks to consistency, and consistency is what most buyers actually want.

4 likes in reply to #42 23mo
B
BramleyTL2Member11 Sep 2024 · edited#58
n.dziedzic, post #55: Trying to state the blind submission position in a way that someone who disagrees would recognise as fair, because I do not think the version in this thread passes that test. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #54 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Blind submission is worth one more sentence than it usually gets, and the sentence is the one about how the number was arrived at.

13 likes in reply to #55 23mo
NV
n.vogelTL212 Sep 2024#59

The arithmetic in post #56 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

The record shows what was measured. Everything beyond that is inference and this site tries to keep the line visible.

Flagging that the sources on this are thinner than the confidence in the thread suggests.

14 likes 23mo
EO
e.okaforTL213 Sep 2024#60

Careful with the language on blind submission. "Not detected" and "not present" are different findings and the first is a statement about the method.

28 likes 22mo