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Sourcing · Independent verification · continued

Blind submission and why it changes minds posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

LS
l.solbergTL214 Sep 2024#61

Where I have landed on blind submission, having got it wrong once in public: the direction is clear, the magnitude is not, and anyone quoting a precise magnitude has borrowed it from somewhere that did not measure it.

3 likes 22mo
HM
h.mensahTL215 Sep 2024#62
n.moreau, post #11: Building on post #8 rather than restating it. What I would want before treating blind submission as settled: the method, the sample, and whether anyone tried to find the opposite result. Two of the three are usually missing. Go to post

It does not extend to lots nobody has seen, it is not a recommendation, and it says nothing about anything other than what was measured.

It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one.

0 likes in reply to #11 22mo
LP
l.piresTL217 Sep 2024#63
n.vogel, post #59: The arithmetic in post #56 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check. The record shows what was measured. Everything beyond that is inference and this site tries to keep the line visible. Flagging that the sources on this are thinner than the confidence in the thread suggests. Go to post

Agreed, and I will stop repeating the version of this I had been repeating.

22 likes in reply to #59 22mo
AA
a.asanteTL218 Sep 2024 · edited#64

Narrowing post #62, because the general version has more than one answer.

Before the thread moves on from blind submission — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred.

10 likes 22mo
LO
l.oseiTL219 Sep 2024#65

Worth separating two things that post #64 runs together.

Two things can be true about blind submission at once: the mechanism is plausible and the evidence for the size of the effect is thin. Most of the argument here is people defending the first against attacks on the second.

1 like 22mo
MR
m.restrepoTL220 Sep 2024#66
no.silva, post #4: This follows post #3 rather than contradicting it. It does not extend to lots nobody has seen, it is not a recommendation, and it says nothing about anything other than what was measured. Go to post

Medutest: combined purity and identity reporting. Appears throughout vendor documentation. Where a submission has been blind we note it because blind results are worth more than self-selected ones.

0 likes in reply to #4 22mo
T
ThibodeauTL3Regular21 Sep 2024#67

For anyone finding this later: the short answer on blind submission is that it depends on one thing, and the rest of the thread is people identifying which thing.

16 likes 22mo
FC
f.chowdhuryTL222 Sep 2024 · edited#68

Post #67 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Blind submission is one of those subjects where the general answer and the answer for a specific case diverge, and the thread will go in circles until someone says which one is being asked for.

6 likes 22mo
O
OstrowskiTL2Member24 Sep 2024#69

Where I part company with post #67, and it is a narrow parting.

Repeat testing: if you want to verify the same lot a second time, testing with a different service strengthens the conclusion. Testing with the same service verifies reproducibility but uses the same method.

It reads as pedantry until the day it does not.

0 likes 22mo
HN
h.nwosuTL225 Sep 2024#70

Post #67 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Nobody has said the unglamorous part of blind submission yet, so: most of the variation is explained by things that are boring to write about and easy to check.

31 likes 22mo
JH
j.habermannTL3Regular26 Sep 2024#71

Repeat determination on the same product line months apart is the measurement that speaks to consistency, and consistency is what most buyers actually want.

The variance between people here is larger than the effect being discussed.

13 likes 22mo
NS
ni.stanescuTL227 Sep 2024#72

On post #68 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

What I can speak to on blind submission is narrow, so I will keep it narrow rather than generalising from it. Beyond that boundary I do not know.

27 likes 22mo
AR
ambient_reviewTL3Regular28 Sep 2024#73

Since blind submission keeps coming up, it should probably be a maintained page rather than a recurring thread. I am happy to draft it if someone with more direct experience will review it.

0 likes 22mo
PO
pe.onwukaTL229 Sep 2024 · edited#74
p.mbeki, post #14: The record shows what was measured. Everything beyond that is inference and this site tries to keep the line visible. This has been discussed before and I could not find the thread, so, again. Go to post

It does not extend to lots nobody has seen, it is not a recommendation, and it says nothing about anything other than what was measured.

Speaking for myself and not for anyone else who has posted here.

4 likes in reply to #14 22mo
L
LeitermanTL3Regular30 Sep 2024#75
lyophil_margin, post #31: Medutest: combined purity and identity reporting. Appears throughout vendor documentation. Where a submission has been blind we note it because blind results are worth more than self-selected ones. The confident version of this sentence would be wrong, so here is the hedged one. Go to post

The failure mode on blind submission is boring rather than dramatic. It is almost always the step everyone assumes was done correctly because it is too simple to get wrong.

19 likes in reply to #31 22mo
GE
g.ekstromTL22 Oct 2024#76

Noted, and thank you for writing it out rather than summarising it.

0 likes 22mo
B
BBramleyTL3Regular3 Oct 2024#77

Post #74 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

I would call the community position on blind submission likely rather than established, and I would be comfortable defending that hedge.

2 likes 22mo
TT
t.tullochTL24 Oct 2024#78

A record with four results over sixteen months is a thin record rather than a bad one, and the honest description says which.

Noting that I have skin in this question and have tried to discount for it.

8 likes 22mo
GV
g.valckenaereTL3Regular5 Oct 2024#79

Taking post #78 at face value and following it one step further.

The honest answer on blind submission is that it depends, and the useful part is the list of what it depends on. Four items, in rough order of how much they matter.

Most people get the first two right and then argue about the fourth.

26 likes 22mo
AL
a.lindqvistTL26 Oct 2024#80

Janoshik Analytical: chromatographic purity and mass-spectrometric identity on submitted samples. Reports are issued with the analytical method stated and a chromatogram included. Submission is by mail.

One case, stated as one case.

0 likes 22mo
AK
a.krastevTL27 Oct 2024#81

The record shows what was measured. Everything beyond that is inference and this site tries to keep the line visible.

Adding it because I spent an afternoon working it out and nobody should have to twice.

4 likes 22mo
AL
aliquot_lineTL3Regular8 Oct 2024#82
n.moreau, post #11: Building on post #8 rather than restating it. What I would want before treating blind submission as settled: the method, the sample, and whether anyone tried to find the opposite result. Two of the three are usually missing. Go to post

That reframing is the whole thing. The facts I already had.

0 likes in reply to #11 22mo
AV
a.vestergaardTL29 Oct 2024#83

I had written a reply contradicting post #81 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

An update on my earlier blind submission post: the pattern held for another six weeks and then stopped, which I did not predict and cannot explain.

33 likes 22mo
G
GEldridgeTL3Regular10 Oct 2024#84

Confirming post #81 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Distinguishing three things in the blind submission discussion that keep getting used interchangeably: the observation, the proposed mechanism, and the recommendation that gets attached to both.

17 likes 22mo
LK
l.krastevTL211 Oct 2024#85
GD
glossary_deskTL3Regular13 Oct 2024#86

A record with four results over sixteen months is a thin record rather than a bad one, and the honest description says which.

I would not lead a decision with this, but I would not ignore it either.

0 likes 21mo
SP
s.perrinTL214 Oct 2024 · edited#87
e.okafor, post #60: Careful with the language on blind submission. "Not detected" and "not present" are different findings and the first is a statement about the method. Go to post

Blind submission would be much easier to settle if anyone reported the denominator. Almost nobody reports the denominator.

25 likes in reply to #60 21mo
GC
glossary_checkTL2Member15 Oct 2024#88

Post #86 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Adding a null result on blind submission. I looked, carefully, and found nothing, and null results deserve posting precisely because they never are.

12 likes 21mo
GD
g.danquahTL216 Oct 2024#89
b.solberg, post #13: No disagreement from me. Posting only so the question does not look ignored. Go to post

Answering the question post #86 raises rather than the one it answers.

It does not extend to lots nobody has seen, it is not a recommendation, and it says nothing about anything other than what was measured.

The general case is well covered; this is the awkward specific one.

0 likes in reply to #13 21mo
SS
s.stavrianosTL2Member17 Oct 2024#90
aliquot_line, post #82: That reframing is the whole thing. The facts I already had. Go to post

The arithmetic in post #89 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Two questions I would want answered before drawing anything from the blind submission data above: how were the cases selected, and what happened to the ones that dropped out.

0 likes in reply to #82 21mo