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Compounds · Repair & healing peptides · continued

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model and its relevance to a human tendon posts 91–120

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

MD
m.dalgaardTL3Regular19 Nov 2024#91
j.nwosu, post #12: Reading a preclinical wound-healing model: the model shows whether a mechanism is plausible in a specific context. It does not show magnitude of effect in humans, does not show safety profile in humans, and does not show whether the effect survives in a more complex biological system. That is not a criticism of preclinical work — it is… Go to post

The preclinical work is genuinely interesting and it is preclinical. A rodent tendon model is a model of a rodent tendon, and the translation record from that kind of model is poor.

That is the practical version. The rigorous version is longer and says the same thing.

29 likes in reply to #12 20mo
RM
r.mensaTL219 Nov 2024#92

Nothing in this subcategory is medical advice and several members here are describing experiments on themselves. Both of those things should be stated plainly rather than implied.

That is one dataset and I would not build a rule on it.

14 likes 20mo
PR
policy_readerTL2Regular19 Nov 2024 · edited#93

Post #91 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Where the reading a preclinical wound-healing model reasoning breaks down for me is the step from the group result to the individual case. That step is almost never argued for.

2 likes 20mo
AJ
a.jansenTL219 Nov 2024#94
GT
g.tanakaTL3Regular19 Nov 2024#95
j.dahlberg, post #22: My position on reading a preclinical wound-healing model is current rather than settled. I have revised it once already and I expect to again, so treat it accordingly. Go to post

Dose-response is unstudied in humans for essentially everything in this family, which means the confident numbers in circulation came from somewhere other than a trial.

This is the sort of thing that ought to be settled and apparently is not.

21 likes in reply to #22 20mo
EA
e.adeyemiTL219 Nov 2024#96
PSkarbek, post #1: On the subject in the title: Reading a preclinical wound-healing model and its relevance to a human tendon Working notes rather than a conclusion. Posting a small dataset on reading a preclinical wound-healing model. It is mine, it is uncontrolled, and the method is stated so it can be discounted appropriately. What I would like is not… Go to post

Post #95 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Adding a null result on reading a preclinical wound-healing model. I looked, carefully, and found nothing, and null results deserve posting precisely because they never are.

9 likes in reply to #1 20mo
DS
d.szymanskiTL3Wiki editor20 Nov 2024#97

Answering the question post #95 raises rather than the one it answers.

The absence of human trials means there is no established dose, no established interval and no established duration. Protocols circulating in this space are convention rather than evidence and should be described as such.

1 like 20mo
MM
m.mwangiTL220 Nov 2024#98

The strongest argument against my own position on reading a preclinical wound-healing model, stated as well as I can state it, since nobody else has yet.

0 likes 20mo
AP
a.petrovTL220 Nov 2024#99
journalclub_wren, post #33: Reported local reactions are common enough in first-hand accounts here to be worth mentioning and are not characterised in any published series. Go to post

Post #95 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Distinguishing three things in the reading a preclinical wound-healing model discussion that keep getting used interchangeably: the observation, the proposed mechanism, and the recommendation that gets attached to both.

15 likes in reply to #33 20mo
AR
ambient_reviewTL3Regular20 Nov 2024#100
j.nwosu, post #12: Reading a preclinical wound-healing model: the model shows whether a mechanism is plausible in a specific context. It does not show magnitude of effect in humans, does not show safety profile in humans, and does not show whether the effect survives in a more complex biological system. That is not a criticism of preclinical work — it is… Go to post

Building on post #99 rather than restating it.

Nothing in this subcategory is medical advice and several members here are describing experiments on themselves. Both of those things should be stated plainly rather than implied.

6 likes in reply to #12 20mo
YI
y.ibarraTL220 Nov 2024#101
DM
d.moreauTL2Regular20 Nov 2024#102

The absence of human trials means there is no established dose, no established interval and no established duration. Protocols circulating in this space are convention rather than evidence and should be described as such.

Flagging that the sources on this are thinner than the confidence in the thread suggests.

9 likes 20mo
RL
r.lundgrenTL220 Nov 2024 · edited#103
Ibrahimovi, post #75: Understood. Thank you for being specific about the limits of it. Go to post

Adding the boring version of reading a preclinical wound-healing model, because the interesting version keeps getting posted and the boring one is usually right.

Check the ordinary explanations, in order, and stop when one of them accounts for what you are seeing. Most of the time the second one does.

0 likes in reply to #75 20mo
QZ
q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance20 Nov 2024#104

Post #103 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Before the thread moves on from reading a preclinical wound-healing model — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred.

0 likes 20mo
VB
v.bruunTL221 Nov 2024#105

The pentadecapeptide sequence is short and stable enough to survive conditions that would degrade a larger peptide, which is one of the few things about it that is well characterised.

If that is already documented somewhere, ignore me and link it.

27 likes 20mo
NT
nl_translatorTL2Translator · NL21 Nov 2024#106

Useful. I had the fact and not the reason, which turns out to be the important half.

13 likes 20mo
BD
b.dumitruTL221 Nov 2024#107
n.kravchenko, post #67: Oral versus injected administration claims for BPC-157: the preclinical work studied injection. Oral claims are common in supplier marketing and poorly supported by published evidence. If you are comparing orality between compounds, that is a distinction worth noting. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #103 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Oral versus injected administration claims for BPC-157: the preclinical work studied injection. Oral claims are common in supplier marketing and poorly supported by published evidence. If you are comparing orality between compounds, that is a distinction worth noting.

It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one.

2 likes in reply to #67 20mo
EN
electrolyte_notesTL2Regular21 Nov 2024#108

Confirming post #107 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

The lyophilised cake is worth looking at before adding diluent. A collapsed or shrunken cake is not a purity finding but it does say something about how the vial was made and how it travelled.

0 likes 20mo
AC
a.cabreraTL221 Nov 2024#109

I would put moderate confidence on the mainstream reading of reading a preclinical wound-healing model and no more. That is not scepticism for its own sake; it is where the sourcing actually stops.

0 likes 20mo
CD
c.draganovTL1Member21 Nov 2024#110
policy_reader, post #93: Post #91 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one. Where the reading a preclinical wound-healing model reasoning breaks down for me is the step from the group result to the individual case. That step is almost never argued for. Go to post

Taking post #107 at face value and following it one step further.

The question underneath reading a preclinical wound-healing model is usually "how would I tell?" rather than "what is true?", and that one has a method attached to it.

Write down what you would expect to see under each hypothesis before you collect anything. If they predict the same observation, collecting it will not help.

19 likes in reply to #93 20mo
NN
n.norgaardTL221 Nov 2024#111
VPoulsen, post #64: Practical answer on reading a preclinical wound-healing model, since the theoretical one is upthread: do the simplest check first, write down the result, and only then decide whether the complicated explanation is needed. It usually is not. Go to post

Reported local reactions are common enough in first-hand accounts here to be worth mentioning and are not characterised in any published series.

29 likes in reply to #64 20mo
RG
r.girardTL221 Nov 2024#112
c.dahlberg, post #89: This follows post #86 rather than contradicting it. Practical experience of reading a preclinical wound-healing model, offered as one case with the conditions stated, not as a general finding. Conditions first, because they are what make it interpretable. Go to post

Dose-response is unstudied in humans for essentially everything in this family, which means the confident numbers in circulation came from somewhere other than a trial.

0 likes in reply to #89 20mo
CS
c.silvaTL221 Nov 2024#113

Confirming post #110 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

The absence of adequately powered published randomised human trials is the central fact about BPC-157. This site states that plainly rather than hedging. Mechanistic plausibility does not substitute for it.

5 likes 20mo
AZ
a.zamoraTL222 Nov 2024#114

I had written a reply contradicting post #112 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model: the model shows whether a mechanism is plausible in a specific context. It does not show magnitude of effect in humans, does not show safety profile in humans, and does not show whether the effect survives in a more complex biological system. That is not a criticism of preclinical work — it is what preclinical work is for.

It reads as pedantry until the day it does not.

14 likes 20mo
DT
d.tammTL222 Nov 2024#115

BPC-157's published evidence is overwhelmingly preclinical and mostly rodent. That is not a dismissal — it is the state of the literature, and any discussion that starts elsewhere is starting from something that is not there.

It is a small point and it changes the answer, which is an awkward combination.

21 likes 20mo
AN
a.nwosuTL222 Nov 2024#116
q.zhao_qa, post #104: Post #103 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Before the thread moves on from reading a preclinical wound-healing model — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred. Go to post

Research use only, not approved for human use, and in this family that statement carries more weight than usual because the published human safety data is effectively absent rather than merely limited.

Somebody will have a better source than mine, and I hope they post it.

0 likes in reply to #104 20mo
AB
a.batistaTL222 Nov 2024#117

The honest answer on reading a preclinical wound-healing model is that it depends, and the useful part is the list of what it depends on. Four items, in rough order of how much they matter.

Most people get the first two right and then argue about the fourth.

2 likes 20mo
AN
a.novakTL222 Nov 2024#118

Coming back to post #116, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

The lyophilised cake is worth looking at before adding diluent. A collapsed or shrunken cake is not a purity finding but it does say something about how the vial was made and how it travelled.

9 likes 20mo
BN
bench_notesTL4 Moderator22 Nov 2024#119

Taking post #118 at face value and following it one step further.

Worth stating the null on reading a preclinical wound-healing model before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one.

0 likes 20mo
EV
e.vargaTL222 Nov 2024#120
PSkarbek, post #1: On the subject in the title: Reading a preclinical wound-healing model and its relevance to a human tendon Working notes rather than a conclusion. Posting a small dataset on reading a preclinical wound-healing model. It is mine, it is uncontrolled, and the method is stated so it can be discounted appropriately. What I would like is not… Go to post

Anecdote is the whole of the human evidence base here, and this community's convention is to say so rather than to aggregate anecdotes into something that sounds like data.

That is my reading. Someone else read the same page differently and was reasonable.

2 likes in reply to #1 20mo