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Compounds · Repair & healing peptides · continued

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model and its relevance to a human tendon posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

KA
k.asanteTL215 Nov 2024#61
CC
crossref_checkTL3Wiki editor15 Nov 2024#62
ch.correia, post #45: Reading a preclinical wound-healing model would be much easier to settle if anyone reported the denominator. Almost nobody reports the denominator. Go to post

Anecdote is the whole of the human evidence base here, and this community's convention is to say so rather than to aggregate anecdotes into something that sounds like data.

That is the honest state of it as of this week.

13 likes in reply to #45 20mo
JF
j.falkTL215 Nov 2024#63

Post #60 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

I have no financial interest in anything named in this thread and I want to say so before I comment on reading a preclinical wound-healing model, because it is the sort of subject where it matters.

26 likes 20mo
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VPoulsenTL3Regular15 Nov 2024#64

Practical answer on reading a preclinical wound-healing model, since the theoretical one is upthread: do the simplest check first, write down the result, and only then decide whether the complicated explanation is needed. It usually is not.

0 likes 20mo
FW
f.weissTL216 Nov 2024#65
j.fonseca, post #40: What would change the position on repair peptides: adequately powered, published, peer-reviewed randomised controlled human trials with pre-specified outcomes. That is the standard applied to every other therapeutic claim on this site and it is the standard applied here. If this contradicts something upthread, the upthread version may… Go to post

Dose-response is unstudied in humans for essentially everything in this family, which means the confident numbers in circulation came from somewhere other than a trial.

It is the kind of thing that is obvious once and never again.

2 likes in reply to #40 20mo
WN
w.novakTL3Regular16 Nov 2024#66
y.adeyemi, post #55: I would be cautious about generalising from the reading a preclinical wound-healing model example above. It is a good example. It is one example. Go to post

On post #62 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

The absence of adequately powered published randomised human trials is the central fact about BPC-157. This site states that plainly rather than hedging. Mechanistic plausibility does not substitute for it.

Where I would look next, rather than where I would stop.

8 likes in reply to #55 20mo
NK
n.kravchenkoTL216 Nov 2024#67

Oral versus injected administration claims for BPC-157: the preclinical work studied injection. Oral claims are common in supplier marketing and poorly supported by published evidence. If you are comparing orality between compounds, that is a distinction worth noting.

19 likes 20mo
CO
c.okaforTL3Regular16 Nov 2024#68

That is consistent with mine, for whatever one more account is worth.

0 likes 20mo
SA
s.achebeTL216 Nov 2024#69
s.cardoso, post #21: Adding the measurement that post #20 says would settle it. Nothing in this subcategory is medical advice and several members here are describing experiments on themselves. Both of those things should be stated plainly rather than implied. That is a description of practice, not a recommendation of it. Go to post

Adding the measurement that post #67 says would settle it.

Marking my uncertainty on reading a preclinical wound-healing model explicitly. I am confident about the direction, much less confident about the size, and not confident at all that it generalises past the case in the first post.

0 likes in reply to #21 20mo
K
KnowltonTL316 Nov 2024#70
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MSaarinenTL3Regular16 Nov 2024#71

For anyone arriving from search engines: this subcategory discusses published preclinical work and the absence of published clinical work. It does not endorse or recommend these compounds.

Adding this to the thread rather than to the wiki, because I am not confident enough for the wiki.

32 likes 20mo
BB
b.brandtTL216 Nov 2024#72

Confirming post #69 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Adding a reference point for reading a preclinical wound-healing model. Mine is a single case, collected without controls, and I am posting the method alongside it so it can be discounted appropriately.

16 likes 20mo
CN
cannula_notesTL2Member17 Nov 2024#73

I would call the community position on reading a preclinical wound-healing model likely rather than established, and I would be comfortable defending that hedge.

6 likes 20mo
AW
am.wikstromTL217 Nov 2024#74
isotonic_sheet, post #52: An observation about reading a preclinical wound-healing model that I cannot explain and am posting anyway, on the principle that unexplained observations are more useful public than private. Go to post

Reported local reactions are common enough in first-hand accounts here to be worth mentioning and are not characterised in any published series.

I have said this before in a thread nobody could find, so it is worth repeating.

1 like in reply to #52 20mo
I
IbrahimoviTL2Member17 Nov 2024#75

Understood. Thank you for being specific about the limits of it.

24 likes 20mo
ZN
z.nakamuraTL217 Nov 2024#76

Post #73 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

One more thing on reading a preclinical wound-healing model that took me far too long to see: the two figures people quote are not measuring the same quantity. Once you notice that, the apparent contradiction disappears.

11 likes 20mo
D
DSakamotoTL3Regular17 Nov 2024 · edited#77

Since reading a preclinical wound-healing model keeps coming up, it should probably be a maintained page rather than a recurring thread. I am happy to draft it if someone with more direct experience will review it.

3 likes 20mo
CK
c.kuuselaTL217 Nov 2024#78
j.falk, post #63: Post #60 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. I have no financial interest in anything named in this thread and I want to say so before I comment on reading a preclinical wound-healing model, because it is the sort of subject where it matters. Go to post

The pentadecapeptide sequence is short and stable enough to survive conditions that would degrade a larger peptide, which is one of the few things about it that is well characterised.

The general answer and the answer for your case may diverge here.

0 likes in reply to #63 20mo
CC
c.correiaTL217 Nov 2024#79

I read post #77 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

On reading a preclinical wound-healing model I would separate what is worth knowing from what is worth acting on. The first list is long and the second is short, and conflating them is how threads get heated.

17 likes 20mo
AA
a.almeidaTL217 Nov 2024#80

Checked the reading a preclinical wound-healing model claim against the primary source this morning. It survives, with a narrower scope than the version quoted here. Posting the narrower scope.

7 likes 20mo
EC
excursion_checkTL3Regular18 Nov 2024#81
s.cardoso, post #21: Adding the measurement that post #20 says would settle it. Nothing in this subcategory is medical advice and several members here are describing experiments on themselves. Both of those things should be stated plainly rather than implied. That is a description of practice, not a recommendation of it. Go to post

BPC-157: the preclinical literature is extensive, mostly from a small number of research groups, and reports effects across a wide range of injury models. The breadth of reported effects is itself worth noting — a compound that improves outcomes in tendon, muscle, gut, nerve and bone through a single mechanism would be remarkable, and remarkable claims deserve proportionate scrutiny.

A guess, clearly labelled as one.

8 likes in reply to #21 20mo
AH
a.hartmannTL218 Nov 2024#82
TT
taper_tableTL3Regular18 Nov 2024#83

The version of reading a preclinical wound-healing model that I was taught turned out to be a teaching simplification. Useful, and not true in the way I had assumed it was.

0 likes 20mo
MA
m.agyemanTL218 Nov 2024#84

Answering the question post #80 raises rather than the one it answers.

One caution on reading a preclinical wound-healing model: everything above assumes the underlying documentation is what it claims to be. That assumption is doing real work and is rarely stated.

2 likes 20mo
AR
ambient_reviewTL3Regular18 Nov 2024#85

Agreed on all of that, and I have nothing to add to it.

13 likes 20mo
PO
pe.onwukaTL218 Nov 2024#86

The lyophilised cake is worth looking at before adding diluent. A collapsed or shrunken cake is not a purity finding but it does say something about how the vial was made and how it travelled.

27 likes 20mo
VD
vial_deskTL3Regular18 Nov 2024#87

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model was covered in the wiki last year and the page has a review date on it, which is a better starting point than my memory of a thread.

0 likes 20mo
EM
e.mensaTL218 Nov 2024 · edited#88
excursion_check, post #81: BPC-157: the preclinical literature is extensive, mostly from a small number of research groups, and reports effects across a wide range of injury models. The breadth of reported effects is itself worth noting — a compound that improves outcomes in tendon, muscle, gut, nerve and bone through a single mechanism would be remarkable, and… Go to post

What would change the position on repair peptides: adequately powered, published, peer-reviewed randomised controlled human trials with pre-specified outcomes. That is the standard applied to every other therapeutic claim on this site and it is the standard applied here.

The claim is narrower than it sounds, and deliberately so.

4 likes in reply to #81 20mo
CD
c.dahlbergTL219 Nov 2024#89
JB
j.baptistaTL219 Nov 2024#90

Worth separating two things that post #88 runs together.

A definition problem is doing most of the work in this reading a preclinical wound-healing model discussion. Once the term is pinned down I suspect the disagreement mostly goes away and what is left is small.

0 likes 20mo