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Evidence · Trials · continued

Subgroup analyses: pre-specified versus discovered — a second dataset posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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d.barrosTL23 Apr 2026#31
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m.ivaturiTL24 Apr 2026#32

What I want from this Subgroup analyses thread is the list of things that would need to be true for the claim to hold. If we can write that list, we can check it.

0 likes 4mo
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n.vogelTL25 Apr 2026#33

Worth separating two things that post #29 runs together.

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

0 likes 4mo
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o.cousineauTL3Regular6 Apr 2026#34

Posting my Subgroup analyses numbers with the method attached so they can be discounted properly. Uncontrolled, unblinded, and collected by someone who wanted a particular answer.

20 likes 4mo
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s.ferreiraTL27 Apr 2026#35

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

I have kept the units in throughout, for the obvious reason.

2 likes 4mo
CN
c.niemelTL3Regular8 Apr 2026#36

Post #33 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Careful with the language on Subgroup analyses. "Not detected" and "not present" are different findings and the first is a statement about the method.

0 likes 4mo
RM
r.mwangiTL28 Apr 2026 · edited#37
i.beaulieu, post #21: Genuine question rather than a rhetorical one: has anyone here actually observed Subgroup analyses, as opposed to read about it? The thread is long and I cannot tell. Go to post

The practical version of Subgroup analyses is three sentences long. The rigorous version is three pages and reaches the same conclusion with the conditions attached.

28 likes in reply to #21 4mo
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BramleyTL2Member9 Apr 2026#38

I will take the caveat as seriously as the claim, which is the point of putting it there.

14 likes 4mo
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compounding_ruthTL4Pharmacist10 Apr 2026#39

Where I part company with post #37, and it is a narrow parting.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

Worth one more sentence than it usually gets.

0 likes 4mo
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j.asanteTL211 Apr 2026#40
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PSkarbekTL3Regular11 Apr 2026#41

Building on post #39 rather than restating it.

I have three months of notes on Subgroup analyses and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight.

12 likes 4mo
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a.silvaTL212 Apr 2026#42

Something worth flagging about Subgroup analyses: the strongest-sounding claims in this thread are the ones with no source attached, which is the usual pattern and not a coincidence.

26 likes 4mo
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buffer_marginTL3Regular13 Apr 2026 · edited#43
Tamburello, post #24: Answering the question post #22 raises rather than the one it answers. A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers. This is the sort of… Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

I would rather be precise about what I do not know than vague about what I do.

0 likes in reply to #24 3mo
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k.haddadTL214 Apr 2026#44

The documentation on Subgroup analyses is better than this thread and I say that as someone who has posted in the thread.

4 likes 3mo
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excursion_checkTL3Regular15 Apr 2026#45
j.asante, post #40: Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post

Taking post #42 at face value and following it one step further.

Subgroup analyses are hypothesis-generating unless pre-specified and adequately powered, and almost none are the second. The interaction test matters more than the subgroup point estimate.

18 likes in reply to #40 3mo
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a.hartmannTL215 Apr 2026#46
h.bhattacharya, post #6: Post #4 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one. Subgroup analyses are hypothesis-generating unless pre-specified and adequately powered, and almost none are the second. The interaction test matters more than the subgroup point estimate. I would want to see it done twice before believing it once. Go to post

Post #44 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Offering a way to settle Subgroup analyses rather than another opinion about it. Two measurements, taken the same way, a fortnight apart. If the difference is within the noise, the question was not answerable at this precision.

0 likes in reply to #6 3mo
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taper_tableTL3Regular16 Apr 2026#47
i.beaulieu, post #21: Genuine question rather than a rhetorical one: has anyone here actually observed Subgroup analyses, as opposed to read about it? The thread is long and I cannot tell. Go to post

Second-hand on Subgroup analyses, so weight it accordingly — someone whose method I trust told me this and I have not verified it myself.

1 like in reply to #21 3mo
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s.vanheckeTL217 Apr 2026#48

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

The part I am sure of is shorter than the part I have written.

7 likes 3mo
LC
l.chevalierTL3Regular18 Apr 2026#49
compounding_ruth, post #39: Where I part company with post #37, and it is a narrow parting. Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit. Worth one more sentence than it usually gets. Go to post

An observation about Subgroup analyses that I cannot explain and am posting anyway, on the principle that unexplained observations are more useful public than private.

4 likes in reply to #39 3mo
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t.verhoevenTL218 Apr 2026#50

Worth separating two things that post #48 runs together.

Practical experience of Subgroup analyses, offered as one case with the conditions stated, not as a general finding. Conditions first, because they are what make it interpretable.

13 likes 3mo
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l.parkinsonTL2Member19 Apr 2026#51
m.amankwah, post #27: Narrowing post #24, because the general version has more than one answer. Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not),… Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

Second-hand, so weight it accordingly.

7 likes in reply to #27 3mo
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ma.nascimentoTL220 Apr 2026#52
a.cabrera, post #16: Adding the measurement that post #14 says would settle it. Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of… Go to post

Confirming post #51 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

1 like in reply to #16 3mo
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vial_slopeTL3Regular21 Apr 2026#53

Post #51 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Subgroup analyses is well covered in the tag pages, and the older discussions are better than the recent ones because they were argued out properly. Worth twenty minutes before adding to this one.

0 likes 3mo
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s.demirTL221 Apr 2026#54

Fair, and the limits you put on it are the part I will remember.

17 likes 3mo
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NLoughranTL3Regular22 Apr 2026#55
o.cousineau, post #34: Posting my Subgroup analyses numbers with the method attached so they can be discounted properly. Uncontrolled, unblinded, and collected by someone who wanted a particular answer. Go to post

Where I part company with post #51, and it is a narrow parting.

What I would want before treating Subgroup analyses as settled: the method, the sample, and whether anyone tried to find the opposite result. Two of the three are usually missing.

4 likes in reply to #34 3mo
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v.malinowskiTL223 Apr 2026#56
l.lundgren, post #23: The arithmetic in post #20 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check. Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. It cost nothing to check and… Go to post

Post #55 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

0 likes in reply to #23 3mo
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h.nicolaidesTL3Regular23 Apr 2026#57

Nobody has said the unglamorous part of Subgroup analyses yet, so: most of the variation is explained by things that are boring to write about and easy to check.

25 likes 3mo
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k.karlsenTL224 Apr 2026#58

Answering the Subgroup analyses question as asked, then the question I think is meant. As asked: yes, with the qualification below. As meant: it depends on how the first measurement was taken.

12 likes 3mo
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l.aaltonenTL3Regular25 Apr 2026#59

Post #55 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

17 likes 3mo
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p.onwukaTL226 Apr 2026#60