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Analytics · Mass spectrometry · continued

Adducts: sodium, potassium, and the peak you did not expect posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

BJ
b.jankowiakTL3Regular10 Mar 2025#31

My experience of adducts contradicts the reply above. I am posting it as a data point rather than as a refutation, because one person's experience is exactly that.

18 likes 17mo
PD
p.dialloTL211 Mar 2025#32
r.scholten, post #19: The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had. I would treat the number as indicative rather than as a measurement. Go to post

One caution on adducts: everything above assumes the underlying documentation is what it claims to be. That assumption is doing real work and is rarely stated.

0 likes in reply to #19 17mo
YM
y.mensahTL3Wiki editor13 Mar 2025#33

Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected.

The answer changed when I changed how I was measuring, which was informative.

0 likes 17mo
JF
j.falkTL214 Mar 2025#34

I had written a reply contradicting post #30 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Nobody has said the unglamorous part of adducts yet, so: most of the variation is explained by things that are boring to write about and easy to check.

4 likes 16mo
ST
slow_titratorTL2Regular15 Mar 2025#35
Ziegler, post #17: Positional isomers and epimers are mass-identical. Any argument that a mass result rules them out is wrong, and it is the commonest overclaim in this subcategory. A qualification I should have led with rather than closed on. Go to post

I would put moderate confidence on the mainstream reading of adducts and no more. That is not scepticism for its own sake; it is where the sourcing actually stops.

12 likes in reply to #17 16mo
HE
h.espinozaTL216 Mar 2025#36
j.delacroix, post #25: Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct. That is the practical version. The rigorous version is longer and says the same thing. Go to post

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

I would be interested in a counterexample if anyone has one.

26 likes in reply to #25 16mo
WN
w.novakTL3Regular17 Mar 2025#37

Post #36 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Small correction to my own earlier position on adducts. I had the units the wrong way round, which changes the conclusion by an order of magnitude and therefore changes it entirely.

0 likes 16mo
TK
t.karlsenTL218 Mar 2025 · edited#38

Thank you — that answers what I came here to find out.

2 likes 16mo
ED
e.dalgleishTL3Regular19 Mar 2025#39
steady_state, post #6: Response in electrospray is not proportional to abundance across different species. Using peak intensities from a mass spectrum to estimate proportions is a mistake that looks reasonable. Go to post

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

I would put the burden of proof on the interesting explanation, not the dull one.

8 likes in reply to #6 16mo
MB
ma.balogunTL220 Mar 2025#40

Everything in post #39 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

19 likes 16mo
PK
p.krastevTL221 Mar 2025#41

Where I part company with post #39, and it is a narrow parting.

Distinguishing three things in the adducts discussion that keep getting used interchangeably: the observation, the proposed mechanism, and the recommendation that gets attached to both.

14 likes 16mo
RV
r.venkatesanTL3Wiki editor22 Mar 2025#42

Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected.

5 likes 16mo
KP
k.pereiraTL223 Mar 2025 · edited#43
dietitian_hollis, post #2: Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation. It is one reading of the data and not the only reasonable one. Go to post

Adducts sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly.

0 likes in reply to #2 16mo
MM
maintenance_modeTL3Regular24 Mar 2025#44
h.espinoza, post #36: Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation. I would be interested in a counterexample if anyone has one. Go to post

Adding the measurement that post #43 says would settle it.

The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had.

I would rather be precise about what I do not know than vague about what I do.

29 likes in reply to #36 16mo
AP
au.pereiraTL225 Mar 2025#45

Following, with nothing to contribute beyond having asked the same thing elsewhere.

9 likes 16mo
LE
logbook_erinTL3Regular26 Mar 2025#46

Confirming post #43 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

An honest declaration on adducts: I have a prior here and it is strong enough that you should weight what I say downward. Stating it rather than hiding it.

2 likes 16mo
AI
a.ilungaTL227 Mar 2025#47

Adducts is worth one more sentence than it usually gets, and the sentence is the one about how the number was arrived at.

0 likes 16mo
CL
coldchain_liuTL3Regular28 Mar 2025#48
j.falk, post #34: I had written a reply contradicting post #30 and deleted it. Here is what survived. Nobody has said the unglamorous part of adducts yet, so: most of the variation is explained by things that are boring to write about and easy to check. Go to post

Resolution and mass accuracy are different specifications. An instrument can resolve two species and still assign their masses imprecisely, and the reverse is also possible.

Genuinely open to being wrong about this one.

21 likes in reply to #34 16mo
JI
j.iyerTL229 Mar 2025#49

Where I would push back on the adducts consensus is the confidence, not the direction. The direction looks right. The confidence is borrowed.

28 likes 16mo
PM
physio_marchettiTL2Physiotherapist30 Mar 2025#50
n.cabrera, post #3: Coming back to the opening post, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. The useful distinction on adducts is between what was measured and what was inferred from it. Both end up in the same sentence and only one of them has error bars. Go to post

Taking post #47 at face value and following it one step further.

Adducts looks different depending on whether you are reading the primary literature or the summaries of it, and the difference is not in our favour.

14 likes in reply to #3 16mo
MB
m.brobergTL231 Mar 2025#51

Positional isomers and epimers are mass-identical. Any argument that a mass result rules them out is wrong, and it is the commonest overclaim in this subcategory.

22 likes 16mo
SL
s.leclercTL4 Moderator1 Apr 2025#52

Post #48 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct.

It is a small point and it changes the answer, which is an awkward combination.

0 likes 16mo
AW
a.wikstromTL21 Apr 2025#53
C
chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist2 Apr 2025#54
s.leclerc, post #52: Post #48 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction. Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct. It is a small point and it changes the answer, which is an awkward… Go to post

Reading back through the adducts threads from last year, the same three questions come up every time and only one of them has ever been answered properly. That seems like a documentation gap rather than a knowledge gap.

10 likes in reply to #52 16mo
EL
e.lokkenTL23 Apr 2025 · edited#55

The question underneath adducts is usually "how would I tell?" rather than "what is true?", and that one has a method attached to it.

Write down what you would expect to see under each hypothesis before you collect anything. If they predict the same observation, collecting it will not help.

30 likes 16mo
CR
c.rasmussenTL24 Apr 2025#56

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

0 likes 16mo
JN
j.nascimentoTL25 Apr 2025#57
w.novak, post #37: Post #36 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Small correction to my own earlier position on adducts. I had the units the wrong way round, which changes the conclusion by an order of magnitude and therefore changes it entirely. Go to post

Post #54 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

On adducts: the maintained page in the documentation commons covers the general case with citations and a review date, which is more reliable than any reply here including this one.

5 likes in reply to #37 16mo
CB
c.bakkerTL26 Apr 2025#58
physio_marchetti, post #50: Taking post #47 at face value and following it one step further. Adducts looks different depending on whether you are reading the primary literature or the summaries of it, and the difference is not in our favour. Go to post

Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak.

It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one.

15 likes in reply to #50 16mo
K
KTurkingtonTL3Regular7 Apr 2025#59
steady_state, post #6: Response in electrospray is not proportional to abundance across different species. Using peak intensities from a mass spectrum to estimate proportions is a mistake that looks reasonable. Go to post

Post #58 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had.

That is a description of practice, not a recommendation of it.

10 likes in reply to #6 16mo
TD
t.demirTL28 Apr 2025#60

Where I have landed on adducts, having got it wrong once in public: the direction is clear, the magnitude is not, and anyone quoting a precise magnitude has borrowed it from somewhere that did not measure it.

23 likes 16mo