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Analytics · Mass spectrometry · continued

Counter-ion content and its effect on measured mass posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

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a.mwangiTL24 May 2025 · edited#31

Post #29 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

15 likes 15mo
CD
cannula_driftTL3Regular5 May 2025#32

Sample preparation for mass spectrometry can itself introduce modifications, particularly oxidation. A finding at trace level may be telling you about the preparation rather than the material.

That much is documented. The rest is how I have interpreted it.

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SV
sa.vogelTL27 May 2025#33
j.marchetti, post #27: That is a cleaner way of putting what I was circling around. Go to post

Combining a chromatographic result with a mass result is genuinely orthogonal confirmation. Either alone leaves a specific class of problem invisible, and the two classes do not overlap much.

Where I would look next, rather than where I would stop.

1 like in reply to #27 15mo
BR
buffer_reviewTL3Regular8 May 2025#34
HHidalgo, post #20: Resolution and mass accuracy are different specifications. An instrument can resolve two species and still assign their masses imprecisely, and the reverse is also possible. This is the sort of thing the wiki should carry and currently does not. Go to post

Narrowing post #33, because the general version has more than one answer.

Tandem mass spectrometry with fragmentation gives sequence information that intact mass cannot. It is the analysis that would actually confirm identity, and it is rarely supplied.

0 likes in reply to #20 15mo
HB
h.bhattacharyaTL29 May 2025#35

For a compound with no reference standard in circulation, an observed mass is much more useful than an assertion of agreement with a theoretical value nobody can check.

It reads as pedantry until the day it does not.

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CSagredoTL3Regular11 May 2025#36

Understood, and I withdraw the assumption I opened with.

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r.novakTL212 May 2025#37
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o.abrahamsenTL3Regular13 May 2025#38

The arithmetic in post #35 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Resolution and mass accuracy are different specifications. An instrument can resolve two species and still assign their masses imprecisely, and the reverse is also possible.

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AR
a.reyesTL4 Admin15 May 2025#39
il.dumitru, post #3: Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation. Genuinely open to being wrong about this one. Go to post

The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had.

I am confident about the direction and much less about the magnitude.

6 likes in reply to #3 14mo
BO
b.oseiTL216 May 2025 · edited#40

Picking up post #38: that is the part I would want checked first.

Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected.

1 like 14mo
BR
buffer_reviewTL3Regular17 May 2025#41

An acylated peptide has a mass that reflects the modification, so comparing against the mass of the unmodified backbone gives a mismatch that is not an error.

None of the above is medical advice and I am not qualified to give any.

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a.norgaardTL218 May 2025#42

Post #40 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Sample preparation for mass spectrometry can itself introduce modifications, particularly oxidation. A finding at trace level may be telling you about the preparation rather than the material.

I would call that likely rather than established.

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LJankowiakTL3Regular20 May 2025#43
a.reyes, post #39: The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had. I am confident about the direction and much less about the magnitude. Go to post

Following this. I have the same question and no better information than the first post.

0 likes in reply to #39 14mo
AC
a.cardosoTL221 May 2025 · edited#44

Summarising the counter-ion content thread so far, since it is long and the answer is buried: the first reply has the method, the fourth has the correction to it, and the rest is people agreeing at length.

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ambient_draftTL3Regular22 May 2025#45

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

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MA
mi.amankwahTL223 May 2025#46
lyophil_margin, post #22: Monoisotopic and average mass are different numbers and both appear on documents. At this molecular weight the difference is a few daltons, which is more than the tolerance being claimed. This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it. Go to post

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

The general case is well covered; this is the awkward specific one.

29 likes in reply to #22 14mo
TS
t.steenkampTL2Member25 May 2025#47
o.abrahamsen, post #38: The arithmetic in post #35 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check. Resolution and mass accuracy are different specifications. An instrument can resolve two species and still assign their masses imprecisely, and the reverse is also possible. Go to post

Post #46 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Adding a reference point for counter-ion content. Mine is a single case, collected without controls, and I am posting the method alongside it so it can be discounted appropriately.

0 likes in reply to #38 14mo
AK
ak.kravchenkoTL226 May 2025#48

Where I part company with post #44, and it is a narrow parting.

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

Not a strong opinion, just a consistent one.

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PWendelboeTL1Member27 May 2025#49

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

I would not lead a decision with this, but I would not ignore it either.

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AW
ai.wikstromTL228 May 2025#50
st.diallo, post #19: Small methodological point on counter-ion content: repeating a measurement is cheap and resolves most of what is being argued about here at no cost to anyone. Go to post

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

10 likes in reply to #19 14mo
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m.nascimentoTL229 May 2025#51

Worth separating two things that post #47 runs together.

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

Worth checking against a second source before it gets quoted onward.

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a.finnegan_rdTL2Dietitian31 May 2025#52

A request rather than an answer: could whoever has the primary source for counter-ion content post it? I have seen the claim three times this month and each version had lost a qualifier.

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p.ostergaardTL21 Jun 2025#53
CSagredo, post #36: Understood, and I withdraw the assumption I opened with. Go to post

Mass error in parts per million is (observed minus theoretical) divided by theoretical, times a million. On a high-resolution instrument a low single-digit figure is unremarkable and expected.

28 likes in reply to #36 14mo
CL
coldchain_liuTL3Regular2 Jun 2025#54

A mass match establishes that the measured mass is consistent with the proposed composition. It does not establish purity, sequence order, or the absence of an isomer, and all three are frequently claimed from it.

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SG
s.girardTL23 Jun 2025#55

Positional isomers and epimers are mass-identical. Any argument that a mass result rules them out is wrong, and it is the commonest overclaim in this subcategory.

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logbook_erinTL3Regular4 Jun 2025#56

Thank you for the correction. I would rather find out here than later.

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f.danquahTL26 Jun 2025#57
a.cardoso, post #44: Summarising the counter-ion content thread so far, since it is long and the answer is buried: the first reply has the method, the fourth has the correction to it, and the rest is people agreeing at length. Go to post

Monoisotopic and average mass are different numbers and both appear on documents. At this molecular weight the difference is a few daltons, which is more than the tolerance being claimed.

I have left out the parts I could not verify.

21 likes in reply to #44 14mo
CO
c.okaforTL3Regular7 Jun 2025 · edited#58
cannula_drift, post #32: Sample preparation for mass spectrometry can itself introduce modifications, particularly oxidation. A finding at trace level may be telling you about the preparation rather than the material. That much is documented. The rest is how I have interpreted it. Go to post

Confirming post #55 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

Two sources, same conclusion, and I could not rule out that one copied the other.

9 likes in reply to #32 14mo
ND
n.duarteTL28 Jun 2025#59

Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct.

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CC
crossref_checkTL3Wiki editor9 Jun 2025#60

Oxidation adds sixteen per oxygen and is the most common modification seen in aged material. Its presence in the spectrum is informative about handling as well as synthesis.

The short answer was in the first line; everything after is the working.

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