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Data & Tools · Calculators · continued

The mass-error checker and its intended scope posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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PSundbergTL2Member19 Jun 2024#61

Counterpoint on mass-error checker, offered without confidence: the same observation is consistent with a much duller explanation, and nobody has ruled the dull one out.

0 likes 2.1y
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y.eriksenTL220 Jun 2024 · edited#62

On mass-error checker I would separate what is worth knowing from what is worth acting on. The first list is long and the second is short, and conflating them is how threads get heated.

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RM
r.marsdenTL3Regular20 Jun 2024#63
r.marsden, post #56: Mass-error checker is a good example of a question where the honest answer is boring and the interesting answers are unsupported. I would go with boring. Go to post

Unit-conversion tools are only as good as the assumption they make about the syringe. Ask what barrel and what graduation interval it assumed before trusting the units figure.

That is one dataset and I would not build a rule on it.

20 likes in reply to #56 2.1y
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f.fontaineTL221 Jun 2024#64

Fine by me. I had wanted a stronger conclusion and there is not one available.

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LeitermanTL3Regular21 Jun 2024#65

Worth separating two things that post #61 runs together.

Significant figures in the output should not exceed what the inputs support. A concentration calculated from a nominal vial mass is not known to four decimal places.

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n.serranoTL221 Jun 2024#66

The calculators maintained on this site are open-source and verifiable. They are intended to check arithmetic, not to replace medical judgement. Using them is optional and they are provided for convenience.

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KF
k.farrugiaTL3Regular22 Jun 2024#67
sterile_table, post #52: Post #48 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction. Whatever the answer on mass-error checker turns out to be, the method for getting there is the same: state the assumption, do the arithmetic in public, invite the correction. Go to post

Mass-error checker came up in a thread eighteen months ago and was answered well. I cannot find it, which is itself the problem, so here is the reconstruction.

14 likes in reply to #52 2.1y
CB
c.balogunTL222 Jun 2024#68

I read the earlier replies on mass-error checker twice before writing this, because I had assumed the opposite and wanted to be sure I was disagreeing with what was said rather than what I expected.

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JH
j.habermannTL3Regular23 Jun 2024#69

Precision and significant figures: the calculators do not round to match your input precision. If you input values to one decimal place, the output might have more. Use significant figures appropriate to your input precision.

I would be interested in a counterexample if anyone has one.

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k.okaforTL223 Jun 2024#70
TI
trough_indexTL3Regular24 Jun 2024#71

This follows post #68 rather than contradicting it.

The parts-per-million mass-error calculation is simple enough to do mentally to one significant figure, which is a good habit because it catches an order-of-magnitude slip immediately.

2 likes 2.1y
FN
f.novakTL224 Jun 2024#72
a.amankwah, post #57: Dose equivalence calculator: compounds have different potencies. The calculator is provided with a caveat: "equivalence" is not precise and individual response varies. It is a rough starting point, not a dose prescription. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #71 runs together.

Dose equivalence calculator: compounds have different potencies. The calculator is provided with a caveat: "equivalence" is not precise and individual response varies. It is a rough starting point, not a dose prescription.

9 likes in reply to #57 2.1y
BR
buffer_reviewTL3Regular24 Jun 2024#73

Mass-error checker was covered in the wiki last year and the page has a review date on it, which is a better starting point than my memory of a thread.

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AN
a.norgaardTL225 Jun 2024#74

The number people quote for mass-error checker is a central estimate presented without its interval, and the interval is wide enough that the estimate is nearly uninformative on its own.

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LJankowiakTL3Regular25 Jun 2024#75

This is the sort of exchange that makes the archive worth searching.

1 like 2.1y
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a.cardosoTL226 Jun 2024#76
c.balogun, post #68: I read the earlier replies on mass-error checker twice before writing this, because I had assumed the opposite and wanted to be sure I was disagreeing with what was said rather than what I expected. Go to post

Tools that run entirely in the browser send nothing anywhere, which matters more to some people here than others and is worth stating either way.

Not the whole picture, but the part of it I can speak to.

6 likes in reply to #68 2.1y
AD
ambient_draftTL3Regular26 Jun 2024#77

A definition problem is doing most of the work in this mass-error checker discussion. Once the term is pinned down I suspect the disagreement mostly goes away and what is left is small.

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MA
mi.amankwahTL226 Jun 2024#78

What I would check first on mass-error checker is whether the thing being measured moved or whether the way of measuring it moved. Those look identical in a graph.

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t.steenkampTL2Member27 Jun 2024#79

The most common input error is entering the vial mass in the concentration field. It produces a plausible number, which is why it survives.

Happy to be the one who is wrong here if it settles the question.

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AK
ak.kravchenkoTL227 Jun 2024#80

The thing about mass-error checker that took me longest to accept is that a plausible mechanism is not evidence of an effect. It is a reason to look, not a result.

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f.villalobosTL228 Jun 2024#81

Post #79 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Mass error checking: enter your observed mass and theoretical mass and check whether the difference in ppm is within reasonable bounds for your instrument. Useful sanity check on LC-MS results.

It is worth checking rather than assuming, which costs nothing.

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TP
t.pereiraTL228 Jun 2024 · edited#82
CSagredo, post #17: The calculators maintained on this site are open-source and verifiable. They are intended to check arithmetic, not to replace medical judgement. Using them is optional and they are provided for convenience. Go to post

Bookmarking this. I will come back when I have something worth adding.

0 likes in reply to #17 2.1y
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b.aaltoTL229 Jun 2024#83
f.villalobos, post #81: Post #79 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction. Mass error checking: enter your observed mass and theoretical mass and check whether the difference in ppm is within reasonable bounds for your instrument. Useful sanity check on LC-MS results. It is worth checking rather than assuming, which costs nothing. Go to post

Filing a mild objection to the consensus on mass-error checker. Mild because I might be wrong; an objection because nobody has addressed the case that does not fit.

12 likes in reply to #81 2.1y
EL
e.lehtinenTL229 Jun 2024#84
f.fontaine, post #64: Fine by me. I had wanted a stronger conclusion and there is not one available. Go to post

The calculators maintained on this site are open-source and verifiable. They are intended to check arithmetic, not to replace medical judgement. Using them is optional and they are provided for convenience.

This has been discussed before and I could not find the thread, so, again.

4 likes in reply to #64 2.1y
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h.eriksenTL229 Jun 2024#85

Practical experience of mass-error checker, offered as one case with the conditions stated, not as a general finding. Conditions first, because they are what make it interpretable.

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z.laurentTL230 Jun 2024#86

Building on post #83 rather than restating it.

Two sentences on mass-error checker and then I will stop, because the rest is speculation and the thread is better without mine.

What is documented is narrow. What is inferred from it is broad. The gap between them is where every argument here lives.

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KC
k.chukwuTL230 Jun 2024#87

A saved calculation is worth more than a remembered one. Write down the inputs alongside the result, because the result alone is unverifiable a month later.

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isotonic_reviewTL1Member1 Jul 2024#88
lyophil_margin, post #58: Everything in post #56 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have. What I want from this mass-error checker thread is the list of things that would need to be true for the claim to hold. If we can write that list, we can check it. Go to post

Mass-error checker: I would want to see the raw numbers rather than the summary before agreeing. Summaries lose exactly the information that would settle this.

1 like in reply to #58 2.1y
KK
k.kimaniTL21 Jul 2024#89
a.amankwah, post #57: Dose equivalence calculator: compounds have different potencies. The calculator is provided with a caveat: "equivalence" is not precise and individual response varies. It is a rough starting point, not a dose prescription. Go to post

A calculator that shows its working is worth ten that give an answer. The whole value is being able to see which step you disagree with.

0 likes in reply to #57 2.1y
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septum_entryTL2Member1 Jul 2024#90
t.batista, post #38: Worth separating two things that post #34 runs together. I would call the community position on mass-error checker likely rather than established, and I would be comfortable defending that hedge. Go to post

One caution on mass-error checker: everything above assumes the underlying documentation is what it claims to be. That assumption is doing real work and is rarely stated.

18 likes in reply to #38 2.1y