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Outcomes · Body composition · continued

Circumference measurements as a poor man's composition estimate posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

CI
c.inglethorpeTL3Regular31 Jul 2024 · edited#31
a.cardoso, post #17: Nothing here is medical advice and none of these measurements is diagnostic on its own. Go to post

Comparing a body composition result against a population reference is a different exercise from tracking your own change, and the second is what most people want.

I have no interest in any supplier named above.

11 likes in reply to #17 2y
RM
r.molnarTL231 Jul 2024#32
a.finnegan_rd, post #10: Changes during titration: measuring body composition during active titration is less useful than measuring after dose is stable. Titration causes fluid shifts that confound body composition. Go to post

Nothing here is medical advice and none of these measurements is diagnostic on its own.

The general answer and the answer for your case may diverge here.

3 likes in reply to #10 2y
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ThibodeauTL3Regular1 Aug 2024#33

Agreed on circumference measurements, with one qualification that I think matters. The reasoning holds for the case as described. Change the starting assumption and it does not, and the starting assumption is the part nobody states.

0 likes 2y
FC
f.chowdhuryTL21 Aug 2024#34

Picking up post #31: that is the part I would want checked first.

Percentage body fat is a ratio, so it changes when either component changes. A rising percentage during weight loss is arithmetic before it is physiology.

23 likes 2y
ME
m.eriksenTL22 Aug 2024#35

Maintenance phase: tracking body composition during maintenance (weight stable) is different from tracking during active loss. Changes are smaller and precision becomes more important.

If that reads as pedantic, it is, and it has saved me twice.

16 likes 2y
MR
m.restrepoTL22 Aug 2024#36
a.norgaard, post #15: Answering the question post #13 raises rather than the one it answers. One caution on circumference measurements: everything above assumes the underlying documentation is what it claims to be. That assumption is doing real work and is rarely stated. Go to post

I have no financial interest in anything named in this thread and I want to say so before I comment on circumference measurements, because it is the sort of subject where it matters.

6 likes in reply to #15 2y
LP
l.piresTL22 Aug 2024#37

Worth separating two things that post #35 runs together.

Bone mineral density changes with substantial weight loss are measurable and slow, and are one of the better reasons to have a baseline scan.

0 likes 2y
ME
m.ekstromTL23 Aug 2024#38

Adding a data point of agreement rather than a data point.

31 likes 2y
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l.solbergTL23 Aug 2024#39

Where I part company with post #35, and it is a narrow parting.

The failure mode on circumference measurements is boring rather than dramatic. It is almost always the step everyone assumes was done correctly because it is too simple to get wrong.

3 likes 2y
HM
h.mensahTL24 Aug 2024 · edited#40
c.inglethorpe, post #31: Comparing a body composition result against a population reference is a different exercise from tracking your own change, and the second is what most people want. I have no interest in any supplier named above. Go to post

Post #39 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

The most useful protocol is the one you will actually repeat identically. An imperfect measurement repeated consistently beats a better one repeated carelessly.

0 likes in reply to #31 2y
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z.okonkwoTL24 Aug 2024 · edited#41
v.nascimento, post #29: Building on post #26 rather than restating it. Neither method is capable of detecting the month-to-month changes that people report detecting month to month. Go to post

That is a fair summary of where the discussion has got to.

0 likes in reply to #29 2y
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system_suitabilityTL3Analytical chemist4 Aug 2024#42
m.ekstrom, post #38: Adding a data point of agreement rather than a data point. Go to post

Post #39 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Where I have landed on circumference measurements, having got it wrong once in public: the direction is clear, the magnitude is not, and anyone quoting a precise magnitude has borrowed it from somewhere that did not measure it.

2 likes in reply to #38 2y
JM
j.moreauTL25 Aug 2024#43

Report the method with the number, always. A composition figure without the method is not comparable to anything, including your own previous figure.

That is all the detail I have. Someone else will have more.

9 likes 2y
KO
k.otieno_statsTL3Statistician5 Aug 2024#44

Circumference measurements at marked sites, taken consistently, track composition change better than most people expect for the cost.

Someone will know this better than I do and I hope they say so.

21 likes 2y
VB
va.baptistaTL26 Aug 2024#45
m.restrepo, post #36: I have no financial interest in anything named in this thread and I want to say so before I comment on circumference measurements, because it is the sort of subject where it matters. Go to post

Building on post #44 rather than restating it.

Neither method is capable of detecting the month-to-month changes that people report detecting month to month.

0 likes in reply to #36 2y
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t.vasquezTL4 Moderator6 Aug 2024#46

I would put moderate confidence on the mainstream reading of circumference measurements and no more. That is not scepticism for its own sake; it is where the sourcing actually stops.

5 likes 2y
JA
j.asanteTL27 Aug 2024#47

Worth separating circumference measurements as a question about the compound from circumference measurements as a question about the documentation. They get answered by different people and only one of them is answerable here.

14 likes 2y
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compounding_ruthTL4Pharmacist7 Aug 2024#48

Everything in post #46 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

Percentage body fat is a ratio, so it changes when either component changes. A rising percentage during weight loss is arithmetic before it is physiology.

28 likes 2y
RN
r.nakamuraTL27 Aug 2024#49

DXA (dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry): the standard for body composition in research. Precision is roughly ±1 kg for lean mass. Two scans six months apart on the same machine with the same technician give you useful information. Two scans six weeks apart on different machines tell you about the machines.

Worth saying I have only my own numbers here, and n is small.

30 likes 2y
DT
dexa_twice_yearlyTL3Regular8 Aug 2024#50
IHollingworth, post #20: Adding the measurement that post #17 says would settle it. The reason circumference measurements is hard to answer is that the obvious measurement and the relevant quantity are not the same thing, and substituting one for the other is silent. Go to post

My experience of circumference measurements contradicts the reply above. I am posting it as a data point rather than as a refutation, because one person's experience is exactly that.

0 likes in reply to #20 2y
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batchlogTL3Regular8 Aug 2024#51

This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not.

12 likes 2y
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m.steinerTL29 Aug 2024 · edited#52

Circumference measurements sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly.

4 likes 2y
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bias_varianceTL4Biostatistician9 Aug 2024#53
a.vermeulen, post #7: Comparing a body composition result against a population reference is a different exercise from tracking your own change, and the second is what most people want. I have kept the units in throughout, for the obvious reason. Go to post

Post #49 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Photographs under fixed lighting and posture are a genuine record and are the hardest of these to standardise.

I would rather be precise about what I do not know than vague about what I do.

0 likes in reply to #7 2y
SO
s.ostergaardTL29 Aug 2024#54

Changes during titration: measuring body composition during active titration is less useful than measuring after dose is stable. Titration causes fluid shifts that confound body composition.

0 likes 2y
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impurity_tableTL3Analytical chemist10 Aug 2024#55

An honest declaration on circumference measurements: I have a prior here and it is strong enough that you should weight what I say downward. Stating it rather than hiding it.

18 likes 2y
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i.norgaardTL210 Aug 2024#56
j.petrov, post #25: My understanding of circumference measurements is a few years old and may have been superseded. If it has been, I would genuinely like to know rather than keep repeating it. Go to post

Building on post #53 rather than restating it.

Resting metabolic rate: body composition affects metabolic rate. As fat mass decreases and lean mass is maintained, metabolic rate is usually maintained better than with simple weight loss alone.

One of those cases where knowing the mechanism does not help the decision.

7 likes in reply to #25 2y
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compounding_ruthTL4Pharmacist11 Aug 2024#57

Lean mass in these measurements includes water, so a change in hydration appears as a change in lean mass.

1 like 2y
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n.laurentTL211 Aug 2024#58

The most useful protocol is the one you will actually repeat identically. An imperfect measurement repeated consistently beats a better one repeated carelessly.

0 likes 2y
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crossover_reviewTL3Regular11 Aug 2024 · edited#59

Post #57 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Circumference measurements at marked sites, taken consistently, track composition change better than most people expect for the cost.

The number is defensible. The precision I gave it is not.

4 likes 2y
JS
j.sandvikTL212 Aug 2024#60

Adding a note of thanks rather than an opinion. I did not know most of that.

0 likes 2y