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Devices · Syringes & needles · continued

Follow-up: Dead volume across syringe and needle combinations posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

QZ
q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance6 Sep 2024#31

Adding the measurement that post #30 says would settle it.

Needle length: typical lengths for subcutaneous injection are 4-6 mm (short), 8 mm (standard), or 10-12 mm (longer). Longer needles are needed for deeper tissue or if you have abdominal adiposity.

18 likes 23mo
RL
r.lundgrenTL28 Sep 2024#32

Thank you — that answers what I came here to find out.

0 likes 23mo
DM
d.moreauTL2Regular11 Sep 2024 · edited#33

Barrel size determines resolution and nothing else. A 0.3 mL barrel and a 1 mL barrel deliver the same volume equally well; the smaller one lets you see what you are delivering.

1 like 23mo
YI
y.ibarraTL213 Sep 2024#34
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist15 Sep 2024#35
b.wikstrom, post #26: Picking up post #23: that is the part I would want checked first. One more thing on Dead volume across syringe that took me far too long to see: the two figures people quote are not measuring the same quantity. Once you notice that, the apparent contradiction disappears. Go to post

For anyone finding this later: the short answer on Dead volume across syringe is that it depends on one thing, and the rest of the thread is people identifying which thing.

25 likes in reply to #26 22mo
AP
a.pereiraTL217 Sep 2024#36

On post #33 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Check what the graduations actually say rather than what you expect. A syringe marked in units and one marked in millilitres look similar at a glance and are not the same instrument.

0 likes 22mo
FP
forest_plotTL3Evidence synthesis19 Sep 2024#37

Dead volume: residual liquid in the hub and needle after withdrawal. Typical residual is 0.01 to 0.02 mL for an insulin syringe with a fixed needle. Accounting for it matters if precision matters.

Anyone with a larger sample, please post it.

4 likes 22mo
SA
s.antonsenTL221 Sep 2024#38

Syringe barrel size: common sizes are 0.3 mL, 0.5 mL, and 1.0 mL. Smaller barrels are more legible for small doses. Larger barrels hold larger volumes. Choose based on your dose.

This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it.

12 likes 22mo
HS
hana.satoTL4 Moderator23 Sep 2024#39
s.vukovic, post #3: The opening post describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one. Safety-engineered needles are worth using if you have children or anyone else in the house, and the retraction mechanism occupies dead volume that ordinary syringes do not. Go to post

Acknowledging rather than arguing. The reasoning holds as far as I can follow it.

8 likes in reply to #3 22mo
CO
c.ostergaardTL225 Sep 2024#40

I disagree with the framing of Dead volume across syringe above, and I think it is a substantive disagreement rather than a terminological one. Setting out why, so it can be checked.

The reasoning depends on an assumption that is doing a lot of work and is never stated. If the assumption holds, the conclusion follows. I do not think it holds generally.

19 likes 22mo
OV
o.vogelTL228 Sep 2024#41
s.antonsen, post #38: Syringe barrel size: common sizes are 0.3 mL, 0.5 mL, and 1.0 mL. Smaller barrels are more legible for small doses. Larger barrels hold larger volumes. Choose based on your dose. This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it. Go to post

On Dead volume across syringe I would separate what is worth knowing from what is worth acting on. The first list is long and the second is short, and conflating them is how threads get heated.

27 likes in reply to #38 22mo
MD
m.duarteTL230 Sep 2024#42
r.mensah, post #30: If your calculated volume is under two graduations, choose a lower concentration rather than trying to read between marks. Precision comes from the preparation, not the eye. Go to post

No disagreement from me. Posting only so the question does not look ignored.

13 likes in reply to #30 22mo
DT
d.tammTL22 Oct 2024#43

Answering the question post #41 raises rather than the one it answers.

Insulin syringe graduations: U-100 syringes are marked in units where 100 units = 1 mL. Always confirm your syringe is U-100. Confusion between insulin units and milligrams is the most common syringe error.

4 likes 22mo
AZ
a.zamoraTL24 Oct 2024#44

Reporting rather than recommending, on Dead volume across syringe. What happened is above. Whether it should have is a different question and not one I am qualified to answer.

0 likes 22mo
AB
a.batistaTL26 Oct 2024#45

Reusing a needle blunts it and there is no benefit to offset that. The second injection with the same needle is the one people describe as painful.

It took me longer than it should have to see that.

20 likes 22mo
AN
a.nwosuTL28 Oct 2024#46
p.diallo, post #28: Needle length for subcutaneous delivery is a question about tissue depth and injection angle together. Short needles at ninety degrees and longer ones at an angle reach comparable depths. Go to post

Safety-engineered needles are worth using if you have children or anyone else in the house, and the retraction mechanism occupies dead volume that ordinary syringes do not.

Filing this under things that are true until someone shows me otherwise.

8 likes in reply to #28 22mo
BN
bench_notesTL4 Moderator10 Oct 2024 · edited#47

Post #45 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

A note on how Dead volume across syringe gets discussed rather than on Dead volume across syringe itself: the confident posts get the replies and the careful ones get ignored, and the careful ones have been right more often.

2 likes 22mo
KP
k.perrinTL212 Oct 2024#48

Adding the measurement that post #45 says would settle it.

Dead volume across syringe came up in a thread eighteen months ago and was answered well. I cannot find it, which is itself the problem, so here is the reconstruction.

0 likes 22mo
MD
m.dumitruTL214 Oct 2024#49
a.pereira, post #36: On post #33 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Check what the graduations actually say rather than what you expect. A syringe marked in units and one marked in millilitres look similar at a glance and are not the same instrument. Go to post

Fixed versus detachable needles: insulin syringes usually have fixed needles (no dead volume loss to the hub). Luer-lock syringes use detachable needles (more dead volume). Fixed needles are preferred for small doses.

14 likes in reply to #36 21mo
DW
diluent_watchTL216 Oct 2024#50
TI
t.ibarraTL218 Oct 2024#51

Taking post #48 at face value and following it one step further.

Fixed-needle insulin syringes have the least dead volume of any common configuration. At small doses that difference is a measurable fraction of what you meant to deliver.

It is worth checking rather than assuming, which costs nothing.

0 likes 21mo
I
IsaksenTL3Regular20 Oct 2024#52

Needle gauge: smaller numbers (30G) are finer and less painful. Larger numbers (25G) are courser. For subcutaneous injection, 27-30G is typical. Finer needles take longer to draw up but hurt less.

This has been discussed before and I could not find the thread, so, again.

0 likes 21mo
NA
n.achebeTL222 Oct 2024#53

The number people quote for Dead volume across syringe is a central estimate presented without its interval, and the interval is wide enough that the estimate is nearly uninformative on its own.

5 likes 21mo
TN
t.nardoneTL3Regular24 Oct 2024#54
glossary_desk, post #20: Reusing a needle blunts it and there is no benefit to offset that. The second injection with the same needle is the one people describe as painful. This is the sort of thing the wiki should carry and currently does not. Go to post

A detachable luer needle plus hub can retain enough volume to matter. Whether it matters to you depends on your dose, and the arithmetic is worth doing once.

14 likes in reply to #20 21mo
KK
k.kuuselaTL226 Oct 2024#55
s.antonsen, post #38: Syringe barrel size: common sizes are 0.3 mL, 0.5 mL, and 1.0 mL. Smaller barrels are more legible for small doses. Larger barrels hold larger volumes. Choose based on your dose. This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it. Go to post

Needle length for subcutaneous delivery is a question about tissue depth and injection angle together. Short needles at ninety degrees and longer ones at an angle reach comparable depths.

It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one.

29 likes in reply to #38 21mo
FE
footnote_entryTL3Regular28 Oct 2024#56

Dead volume across syringe was covered in the wiki last year and the page has a review date on it, which is a better starting point than my memory of a thread.

0 likes 21mo
RB
r.bakkenTL229 Oct 2024 · edited#57

That is a cleaner way of putting what I was circling around.

2 likes 21mo
NR
n.rowntreeTL3Regular31 Oct 2024#58
bench_entry, post #27: This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not. Go to post

Answering the question post #54 raises rather than the one it answers.

Coring the stopper is a real phenomenon with repeated entries at the same point and blunt needles. Varying the entry point slightly and using a fresh needle prevents it.

9 likes in reply to #27 21mo
RC
r.chukwuTL22 Nov 2024#59
bench_notes, post #47: Post #45 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one. A note on how Dead volume across syringe gets discussed rather than on Dead volume across syringe itself: the confident posts get the replies and the careful ones get ignored, and the careful ones have been right more often. Go to post

The thing about Dead volume across syringe that took me longest to accept is that a plausible mechanism is not evidence of an effect. It is a reason to look, not a result.

21 likes in reply to #47 21mo
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BramleyTL2Member4 Nov 2024#60

Filter needles are for drawing from glass ampoules where particulate is a real risk. For a stoppered vial they add dead volume in exchange for very little.

0 likes 21mo