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Evidence · Meta-analyses · continued

Random versus fixed effects: choosing rather than defaulting — a second dataset posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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OkaforTL3Regular31 Jan 2025#31

Agreed, and I will stop repeating the version of this I had been repeating.

0 likes 18mo
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i.oseiTL231 Jan 2025#32

Building on post #29 rather than restating it.

On Random versus fixed effects, the part that usually goes wrong is that the question is asked as though it has one answer. It has a range, and the width of the range is the interesting bit.

If you can post the two or three numbers you are working from, several people here will check the arithmetic rather than argue about the conclusion.

32 likes 18mo
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OTeixeiraTL3Regular31 Jan 2025#33
i.grimaldi, post #13: Thank you — that answers what I came here to find out. Go to post

Double extraction with disagreement resolution is standard and is worth checking for, because single extraction errors are common and non-random.

It is a small point and it changes the answer, which is an awkward combination.

16 likes in reply to #13 18mo
SO
s.oyelaranTL21 Feb 2025#34
HHidalgo, post #6: Offering a way to settle Random versus fixed effects rather than another opinion about it. Two measurements, taken the same way, a fortnight apart. If the difference is within the noise, the question was not answerable at this precision. Go to post

The I-squared statistic describes the proportion of variability not attributable to chance and is frequently read as a threshold. It is a description rather than a test.

This has been discussed before and I could not find the thread, so, again.

6 likes in reply to #6 18mo
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MJayawardenaTL3Regular1 Feb 2025#35

Where I part company with post #33, and it is a narrow parting.

Speaking only to Random versus fixed effects as I have actually seen it, rather than as it is usually described: the effect is real, it is smaller than the thread suggests, and the variance between people is larger than the effect.

0 likes 18mo
NZ
n.zielinskiTL21 Feb 2025#36

The useful distinction on Random versus fixed effects is between what was measured and what was inferred from it. Both end up in the same sentence and only one of them has error bars.

24 likes 18mo
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endpoint_marginTL2Member1 Feb 2025#37
d.bramley, post #18: The arithmetic in post #15 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check. My understanding of Random versus fixed effects is a few years old and may have been superseded. If it has been, I would genuinely like to know rather than keep repeating it. Go to post

Funnel plots: a plot of study effect size versus sample size that helps detect publication bias. If small studies are missing on the negative side, the funnel is asymmetrical.

Adding a source would improve this post and I do not have one to hand.

11 likes in reply to #18 18mo
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b.teixeiraTL21 Feb 2025#38

Adding the measurement that post #37 says would settle it.

Fixed-effects versus random-effects models: fixed-effects assumes all studies are estimating the same thing and variation is sampling error. Random-effects assumes studies are estimating effects from different distributions and allows between-study variance. Choice matters if heterogeneity is high.

Not disagreeing with anyone above, just adding the bit I keep having to look up.

3 likes 18mo
ED
e.dalgleishTL3Regular2 Feb 2025 · edited#39

Adding a null result on Random versus fixed effects. I looked, carefully, and found nothing, and null results deserve posting precisely because they never are.

3 likes 18mo
AK
ar.kravchenkoTL22 Feb 2025#40

This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not.

0 likes 18mo
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s.vanheckeTL22 Feb 2025 · edited#41
endpoint_margin, post #37: Funnel plots: a plot of study effect size versus sample size that helps detect publication bias. If small studies are missing on the negative side, the funnel is asymmetrical. Adding a source would improve this post and I do not have one to hand. Go to post

Adding a note of thanks rather than an opinion. I did not know most of that.

0 likes in reply to #37 18mo
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excursion_checkTL3Regular2 Feb 2025#42

Number needed to treat from a meta-analysis: can be computed from the pooled estimate if the baseline risk is specified. More interpretable than pooled relative effects.

1 like 18mo
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t.verhoevenTL22 Feb 2025#43

I have been on both sides of the Random versus fixed effects argument in this category within eighteen months, which should tell you how strong the evidence for either side is.

10 likes 18mo
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taper_tableTL3Regular2 Feb 2025#44

Coming back to post #42, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Random versus fixed effects is a good example of a question where the honest answer is boring and the interesting answers are unsupported. I would go with boring.

22 likes 18mo
MA
m.adebayoTL23 Feb 2025#45

Adding the measurement that post #42 says would settle it.

Where the pooled result and the largest single trial disagree, that disagreement is the interesting thing rather than an inconvenience to be smoothed.

If this contradicts something upthread, the upthread version may well be the better one.

0 likes 18mo
LC
l.chevalierTL3Regular3 Feb 2025#46

Study quality and weighting: some meta-analyses weight all studies equally; others weight by study size or study quality. The choice affects the result and should be stated and justified.

The literature is thinner on this than the confidence in the thread implies.

3 likes 18mo
AE
a.eriksenTL23 Feb 2025#47

On Random versus fixed effects, I would rather understate and be corrected upward than overstate and be quoted. That is a house style here and it is a good one.

15 likes 18mo
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vial_deskTL3Regular3 Feb 2025#48
z.szabo, post #28: Funnel plots: a plot of study effect size versus sample size that helps detect publication bias. If small studies are missing on the negative side, the funnel is asymmetrical. I would call that likely rather than established. Go to post

Individual participant data pooling is a much stronger design than aggregate pooling and is rare because it requires cooperation rather than a search.

30 likes in reply to #28 18mo
DB
d.barrosTL23 Feb 2025#49
e.ndiaye, post #7: High heterogeneity is the finding rather than a nuisance to be minimised. If the effect genuinely differs across settings, an average of those settings is an average of things that should not have been averaged. I would treat that as a working assumption and revisit it. Go to post

What I would check first on Random versus fixed effects is whether the thing being measured moved or whether the way of measuring it moved. Those look identical in a graph.

1 like in reply to #7 18mo
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n.petrovTL24 Feb 2025 · edited#50
d.bramley, post #18: The arithmetic in post #15 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check. My understanding of Random versus fixed effects is a few years old and may have been superseded. If it has been, I would genuinely like to know rather than keep repeating it. Go to post

Post #48 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Filing a mild objection to the consensus on Random versus fixed effects. Mild because I might be wrong; an objection because nobody has addressed the case that does not fit.

6 likes in reply to #18 18mo
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r.aldana_pharmdTL4Pharmacist4 Feb 2025#51
ar.kravchenko, post #40: This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not. Go to post

Same experience here, different supplier, so it is at least not unique to one of them.

18 likes in reply to #40 18mo
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e.vargaTL24 Feb 2025#52

Double extraction with disagreement resolution is standard and is worth checking for, because single extraction errors are common and non-random.

A partial answer, offered because a partial answer beats none.

25 likes 18mo
LG
lc_gradientTL3Analytical chemist4 Feb 2025#53

I read post #52 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

The most useful thing anyone has posted about Random versus fixed effects in this category was a table of what had been measured and by whom. That is what I would want again.

0 likes 18mo
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r.zielinskiTL24 Feb 2025#54

Post #52 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Pooled estimates and heterogeneity: when trials differ in population, duration, or comparator, a pooled estimate answers a question that no individual trial asked. High heterogeneity means effects genuinely differ across studies. The pooled number is an average of things that should not have been averaged.

The short version is the first sentence; the rest is why.

0 likes 18mo
DB
dr_bhattacharyaTL3Physician5 Feb 2025#55
d.barros, post #49: What I would check first on Random versus fixed effects is whether the thing being measured moved or whether the way of measuring it moved. Those look identical in a graph. Go to post

A note on scope: what I am saying about Random versus fixed effects applies to the case in the first post and I would not extend it further without checking.

12 likes in reply to #49 18mo
DV
d.vukovicTL25 Feb 2025#56
endpoint_margin, post #37: Funnel plots: a plot of study effect size versus sample size that helps detect publication bias. If small studies are missing on the negative side, the funnel is asymmetrical. Adding a source would improve this post and I do not have one to hand. Go to post

This follows post #55 rather than contradicting it.

Double extraction with disagreement resolution is standard and is worth checking for, because single extraction errors are common and non-random.

I have said this before in a thread nobody could find, so it is worth repeating.

4 likes in reply to #37 18mo
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e.ferreiraTL3Regular5 Feb 2025#57

Coming back to post #55, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

High heterogeneity is the finding rather than a nuisance to be minimised. If the effect genuinely differs across settings, an average of those settings is an average of things that should not have been averaged.

0 likes 18mo
TD
t.duarteTL25 Feb 2025 · edited#58

Fixed-effect and random-effects models answer different questions. The first assumes one true effect; the second assumes a distribution of them. Choosing between them is an assumption, not a technicality.

26 likes 18mo
CS
c.silvaTL25 Feb 2025#59

Where I part company with post #55, and it is a narrow parting.

Study quality and weighting: some meta-analyses weight all studies equally; others weight by study size or study quality. The choice affects the result and should be stated and justified.

I have no interest in any supplier named above.

8 likes 18mo
RG
r.girardTL25 Feb 2025#60

Bookmarking this. I will come back when I have something worth adding.

2 likes 18mo