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Outcomes · Body composition · continued

Ultrasound and skinfolds: operator dependence in practice posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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t.nardoneTL3Regular26 Jun 2026#31

Photographs under fixed lighting and posture are a genuine record and are the hardest of these to standardise.

2 likes 1mo
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c.serranoTL226 Jun 2026#32

Agreed, and I will stop repeating the version of this I had been repeating.

8 likes 1mo
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BBramleyTL3Regular27 Jun 2026 · edited#33
n.ibarra, post #13: Percentage body fat is a ratio, so it changes when either component changes. A rising percentage during weight loss is arithmetic before it is physiology. Adding this to the thread rather than to the wiki, because I am not confident enough for the wiki. Go to post

Reading back through the ultrasound and skinfolds threads from last year, the same three questions come up every time and only one of them has ever been answered properly. That seems like a documentation gap rather than a knowledge gap.

26 likes in reply to #13 1mo
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t.tullochTL228 Jun 2026#34
l.osei, post #21: Post #19 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction. Bone mineral density changes with substantial weight loss are measurable and slow, and are one of the better reasons to have a baseline scan. Go to post

Ultrasound and skinfolds is a good example of a question where the honest answer is boring and the interesting answers are unsupported. I would go with boring.

0 likes in reply to #21 30d
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vial_deskTL3Regular29 Jun 2026#35

Adding the measurement that post #34 says would settle it.

Bone mineral density changes with substantial weight loss are measurable and slow, and are one of the better reasons to have a baseline scan.

0 likes 29d
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e.mensaTL229 Jun 2026#36

Post #33 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

What I want from this ultrasound and skinfolds thread is the list of things that would need to be true for the claim to hold. If we can write that list, we can check it.

5 likes 29d
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HRouhaniTL1Member30 Jun 2026#37
z.szabo, post #19: Practical note on ultrasound and skinfolds: write down what you expect before you look. The number of times I have found what I went looking for is higher than chance would allow. Go to post

The thing about ultrasound and skinfolds that took me longest to accept is that a plausible mechanism is not evidence of an effect. It is a reason to look, not a result.

19 likes in reply to #19 28d
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t.verhoevenTL21 Jul 2026#38

Percentage body fat is a ratio, so it changes when either component changes. A rising percentage during weight loss is arithmetic before it is physiology.

0 likes 27d
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taper_tableTL3Regular1 Jul 2026#39

Small correction to my own earlier position on ultrasound and skinfolds. I had the units the wrong way round, which changes the conclusion by an order of magnitude and therefore changes it entirely.

0 likes 26d
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m.agyemanTL22 Jul 2026#40

The question underneath ultrasound and skinfolds is usually "how would I tell?" rather than "what is true?", and that one has a method attached to it.

Write down what you would expect to see under each hypothesis before you collect anything. If they predict the same observation, collecting it will not help.

2 likes 26d
DO
dr_okonkwoTL4 Moderator3 Jul 2026#41

The most useful protocol is the one you will actually repeat identically. An imperfect measurement repeated consistently beats a better one repeated carelessly.

The claim is narrower than it sounds, and deliberately so.

0 likes 25d
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c.grimaldiTL24 Jul 2026#42

A request rather than an answer: could whoever has the primary source for ultrasound and skinfolds post it? I have seen the claim three times this month and each version had lost a qualifier.

0 likes 24d
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PharmNotes_WhitfieldTL4Pharmacist4 Jul 2026#43
HRouhani, post #37: The thing about ultrasound and skinfolds that took me longest to accept is that a plausible mechanism is not evidence of an effect. It is a reason to look, not a result. Go to post

Where I part company with post #41, and it is a narrow parting.

Ultrasound and skinfolds is one of those subjects where the general answer and the answer for a specific case diverge, and the thread will go in circles until someone says which one is being asked for.

20 likes in reply to #37 24d
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j.fonsecaTL25 Jul 2026#44
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n.nybergTL26 Jul 2026#45

What would change my mind on ultrasound and skinfolds is a second dataset collected by someone with no stake in the first. Until then I hold it loosely and I would rather say so than pretend to more.

2 likes 22d
CL
c.lundgrenTL26 Jul 2026#46

The arithmetic in post #45 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

I changed my mind about ultrasound and skinfolds after someone here asked me for the source and I could not produce one. That is worth saying out loud because it is the ordinary way it happens.

0 likes 22d
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c.cardosoTL27 Jul 2026 · edited#47
c.lundgren, post #46: The arithmetic in post #45 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check. I changed my mind about ultrasound and skinfolds after someone here asked me for the source and I could not produce one. That is worth saying out loud because it is the ordinary way it happens. Go to post

Helpful, and short, which on this subject is harder than long.

28 likes in reply to #46 21d
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m.lehtinenTL28 Jul 2026#48

Photographs under fixed lighting and posture are a genuine record and are the hardest of these to standardise.

13 likes 20d
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customs_ledgerTL38 Jul 2026#49
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ro.friskTL29 Jul 2026#50
l.osei, post #21: Post #19 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction. Bone mineral density changes with substantial weight loss are measurable and slow, and are one of the better reasons to have a baseline scan. Go to post

Narrowing post #48, because the general version has more than one answer.

Worth stating the null on ultrasound and skinfolds before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one.

21 likes in reply to #21 19d
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f.ibarraTL210 Jul 2026#51

Neither method is capable of detecting the month-to-month changes that people report detecting month to month.

I looked this up rather than remembered it, which is the right order.

0 likes 18d
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OkaforTL3Regular10 Jul 2026#52

Reading back through, this was answered upthread and I missed it. My fault.

1 like 18d
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d.nilsenTL211 Jul 2026#53

Confirming post #51 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

The practical version of ultrasound and skinfolds is three sentences long. The rigorous version is three pages and reaches the same conclusion with the conditions attached.

6 likes 17d
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OTeixeiraTL3Regular12 Jul 2026#54
HRouhani, post #37: The thing about ultrasound and skinfolds that took me longest to accept is that a plausible mechanism is not evidence of an effect. It is a reason to look, not a result. Go to post

The failure mode on ultrasound and skinfolds is boring rather than dramatic. It is almost always the step everyone assumes was done correctly because it is too simple to get wrong.

16 likes in reply to #37 16d
EC
e.coelhoTL212 Jul 2026#55

Bone mineral density changes with substantial weight loss are measurable and slow, and are one of the better reasons to have a baseline scan.

It is the sort of thing that seems obvious in retrospect and was not at the time.

0 likes 16d
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f.abrahamsenTL2Member13 Jul 2026#56

Since ultrasound and skinfolds keeps coming up, it should probably be a maintained page rather than a recurring thread. I am happy to draft it if someone with more direct experience will review it.

3 likes 15d
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il.dumitruTL214 Jul 2026 · edited#57
l.osei, post #21: Post #19 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction. Bone mineral density changes with substantial weight loss are measurable and slow, and are one of the better reasons to have a baseline scan. Go to post

Post #56 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

One more thing on ultrasound and skinfolds that took me far too long to see: the two figures people quote are not measuring the same quantity. Once you notice that, the apparent contradiction disappears.

10 likes in reply to #21 14d
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g.haalandTL3Regular14 Jul 2026#58
t.tulloch, post #34: Ultrasound and skinfolds is a good example of a question where the honest answer is boring and the interesting answers are unsupported. I would go with boring. Go to post

Where I part company with post #54, and it is a narrow parting.

Photographs under fixed lighting and posture are a genuine record and are the hardest of these to standardise.

22 likes in reply to #34 14d
MY
m.yilmazTL215 Jul 2026#59

Posting my ultrasound and skinfolds numbers with the method attached so they can be discounted properly. Uncontrolled, unblinded, and collected by someone who wanted a particular answer.

23 likes 13d
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g.ibarraTL216 Jul 2026#60

Ultrasound and skinfolds: I have looked for the primary source twice and failed twice. Either it does not exist or it is somewhere I do not know to look, and I would like to know which.

0 likes 12d