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Documentation · Doc review · continued

A promotion I argued against, and why I lost posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

MD
m.duarteTL216 Dec 2024#31

This is the answer, and the reason it is the answer is the more useful part.

2 likes 19mo
NN
n.norgaardTL217 Dec 2024#32

The most useful review comment names a sentence and says what is wrong with it. General approval and general concern are both hard to act on.

0 likes 19mo
RV
r.villalobosTL218 Dec 2024#33
l.osei, post #13: Reading back through, this was answered upthread and I missed it. My fault. Go to post

I have three months of notes on promotion and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight.

20 likes in reply to #13 19mo
OV
o.vogelTL219 Dec 2024#34
f.espinoza, post #6: Where the review finds the content is right but the framing overstates it, that is the most valuable catch available at this stage. Go to post

Something worth flagging about promotion: the strongest-sounding claims in this thread are the ones with no source attached, which is the usual pattern and not a coincidence.

8 likes in reply to #6 19mo
RS
r.scholtenTL2Member20 Dec 2024#35

Coming back to post #32, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Reviewing your own nomination is fine and is not sufficient. Somebody else has to read it for the process to mean anything.

I have separated what I observed from what I concluded, which does not always happen.

0 likes 19mo
GV
g.verhoevenTL221 Dec 2024#36

Post #35 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Second-hand on promotion, so weight it accordingly — someone whose method I trust told me this and I have not verified it myself.

0 likes 19mo
FF
f.fenwickTL3Regular22 Dec 2024#37
l.pires, post #11: Where the review finds the content is right but the framing overstates it, that is the most valuable catch available at this stage. Go to post

Objections are genuinely wanted at this stage, because a bad promotion is much harder to undo than a bad reply.

14 likes in reply to #11 19mo
AP
ar.petrovTL223 Dec 2024#38

Where the promotion discussion usually stalls is that nobody wants to say "I do not know" and everyone is willing to say "it varies". Those are the same sentence with different clothes on.

5 likes 19mo
AV
a.vukovicTL224 Dec 2024#39

A promotion that is declined should leave the topic linked from wherever the question recurs, so the work is not lost.

The general answer and the answer for your case may diverge here.

0 likes 19mo
BN
bench_notesTL4 Moderator25 Dec 2024#40
f.fenwick, post #37: Objections are genuinely wanted at this stage, because a bad promotion is much harder to undo than a bad reply. Go to post

My position on promotion is current rather than settled. I have revised it once already and I expect to again, so treat it accordingly.

28 likes in reply to #37 19mo
GB
g.bakkenTL226 Dec 2024#41

Where the review finds the content is right but the framing overstates it, that is the most valuable catch available at this stage.

0 likes 19mo
ST
sterile_tableTL3Regular27 Dec 2024#42
ar.petrov, post #38: Where the promotion discussion usually stalls is that nobody wants to say "I do not know" and everyone is willing to say "it varies". Those are the same sentence with different clothes on. Go to post

Summarising the promotion thread so far, since it is long and the answer is buried: the first reply has the method, the fourth has the correction to it, and the rest is people agreeing at length.

5 likes in reply to #38 19mo
SL
s.lindqvistTL228 Dec 2024 · edited#43

Taking post #40 at face value and following it one step further.

Promotion is a question about a distribution, not about a value, and treating it as a value is what produces the confident wrong answers.

14 likes 19mo
FR
figure_reviewTL2Member29 Dec 2024#44

The most useful review comment names a sentence and says what is wrong with it. General approval and general concern are both hard to act on.

On balance I think that is right, and I would not bet much on it.

28 likes 19mo
JM
j.marchettiTL230 Dec 2024#45

Adding a reference point for promotion. Mine is a single case, collected without controls, and I am posting the method alongside it so it can be discounted appropriately.

0 likes 19mo
RM
r.marsdenTL3Regular31 Dec 2024#46
f.fenwick, post #37: Objections are genuinely wanted at this stage, because a bad promotion is much harder to undo than a bad reply. Go to post

The failure mode on promotion is boring rather than dramatic. It is almost always the step everyone assumes was done correctly because it is too simple to get wrong.

2 likes in reply to #37 19mo
AA
a.amankwahTL21 Jan 2025#47

This follows post #44 rather than contradicting it.

Reviewing your own nomination is fine and is not sufficient. Somebody else has to read it for the process to mean anything.

If this contradicts something upthread, the upthread version may well be the better one.

9 likes 19mo
LM
lyophil_marginTL3Regular2 Jan 2025#48

Worth separating two things that post #46 runs together.

Check the links. Promotion frequently breaks a cross-reference because the source topic now points at the document rather than the reverse.

The literature is thinner on this than the confidence in the thread implies.

21 likes 19mo
MY
m.yildizTL23 Jan 2025#49

Adding the measurement that post #48 says would settle it.

Checked the promotion claim against the primary source this morning. It survives, with a narrower scope than the version quoted here. Posting the narrower scope.

4 likes 19mo
KF
k.farrugiaTL3Regular4 Jan 2025 · edited#50

The honest answer on promotion is that it depends, and the useful part is the list of what it depends on. Four items, in rough order of how much they matter.

Most people get the first two right and then argue about the fourth.

13 likes 19mo
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NorringtonTL3Regular5 Jan 2025#51

The most useful review comment names a sentence and says what is wrong with it. General approval and general concern are both hard to act on.

0 likes 19mo
GT
g.tammTL26 Jan 2025#52

Review of promoted topics: when a topic is nominated for promotion to a maintained documentation page, the draft is posted here. Community review happens before promotion. Objections are welcome.

Worth checking against a second source before it gets quoted onward.

26 likes 19mo
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NicolaidesTL3Regular7 Jan 2025 · edited#53
bench_notes, post #40: My position on promotion is current rather than settled. I have revised it once already and I expect to again, so treat it accordingly. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #49 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

For anyone finding this later: the short answer on promotion is that it depends on one thing, and the rest of the thread is people identifying which thing.

13 likes in reply to #40 19mo
WV
w.verhoevenTL27 Jan 2025#54
cohort_drift, post #29: Reviewing your own nomination is fine and is not sufficient. Somebody else has to read it for the process to mean anything. That is the honest state of it as of this week. Go to post

Confirming post #53 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Promotion is one of those subjects where the general answer and the answer for a specific case diverge, and the thread will go in circles until someone says which one is being asked for.

4 likes in reply to #29 19mo
TF
taper_fileTL3Regular8 Jan 2025#55

Thank you — that answers what I came here to find out.

0 likes 19mo
HK
h.krastevTL29 Jan 2025#56

Reviewing your own nomination is fine and is not sufficient. Somebody else has to read it for the process to mean anything.

19 likes 19mo
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DKwiatkowskiTL3Regular10 Jan 2025#57
f.fenwick, post #37: Objections are genuinely wanted at this stage, because a bad promotion is much harder to undo than a bad reply. Go to post

Where the review finds the content is right but the framing overstates it, that is the most valuable catch available at this stage.

I am describing what is, rather than arguing for what should be.

8 likes in reply to #37 19mo
DA
d.achebeTL211 Jan 2025#58
bench_peak, post #25: Post #22 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Adding a small correction to the promotion summary above rather than a disagreement with it. The substance holds; one of the figures is out by a factor that matters. Go to post

Post #57 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Before the thread moves on from promotion — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred.

2 likes in reply to #25 19mo
I
IbrahimoviTL2Member12 Jan 2025#59

Two claims get bundled together under promotion and they need separating. The descriptive one — this is what was observed — is usually well supported. The causal one — this is why — usually is not.

Almost every disagreement in threads like this one dissolves once you say which of the two you are making.

1 like 18mo
AM
a.molnarTL213 Jan 2025#60

Narrowing post #57, because the general version has more than one answer.

Reviewing your own nomination is fine and is not sufficient. Somebody else has to read it for the process to mean anything.

I have seen it go both ways, which is why I hedge.

0 likes 18mo