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Sourcing · Red flags · continued

Identical chromatograms across two different lots posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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g.ekstromTL230 Sep 2024#31

That is a fair summary of where the discussion has got to.

0 likes 22mo
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BBramleyTL3Regular3 Oct 2024#32

Everything in post #30 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

A definition problem is doing most of the work in this identical chromatograms discussion. Once the term is pinned down I suspect the disagreement mostly goes away and what is left is small.

1 like 22mo
NS
n.serranoTL25 Oct 2024#33

Building on post #32 rather than restating it.

The guidelines draw that line for a practical reason as much as a fair one: reports accumulate into something useful and allegations do not.

Small point, but it is the one that usually catches people.

6 likes 22mo
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LeitermanTL3Regular8 Oct 2024#34
lyophil_margin, post #16: I had written a reply contradicting post #12 and deleted it. Here is what survived. The most useful contribution to this subcategory is a resolved case written up with the resolution, because the unresolved ones are all anyone remembers. A single observation, in a thread that deserves better than single observations. Go to post

Practical experience of identical chromatograms, offered as one case with the conditions stated, not as a general finding. Conditions first, because they are what make it interpretable.

15 likes in reply to #16 22mo
NS
ni.stanescuTL210 Oct 2024#35
r.laurent, post #21: Post #17 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one. I would call the community position on identical chromatograms likely rather than established, and I would be comfortable defending that hedge. Go to post

Identical chromatograms was covered in the wiki last year and the page has a review date on it, which is a better starting point than my memory of a thread.

0 likes in reply to #21 22mo
AR
ambient_reviewTL3Regular13 Oct 2024#36

Pricing patterns: unusually low prices for what are otherwise consistent with market rates might indicate lower quality, stolen goods, or a scam. Unusually high prices without justification raise different flags.

2 likes 21mo
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t.tullochTL215 Oct 2024 · edited#37

Post #36 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

What I would check first on identical chromatograms is whether the thing being measured moved or whether the way of measuring it moved. Those look identical in a graph.

10 likes 21mo
JH
j.habermannTL3Regular18 Oct 2024#38
Ibrahimovi, post #14: Keep the two claims separate. "The result on this lot did not match the certificate" is a report that can be checked. "This supplier is dishonest" is an allegation about intent and nothing in a chromatogram supports it. The mechanism is plausible, which is not the same as established. Go to post

Where I part company with post #34, and it is a narrow parting.

Filing a mild objection to the consensus on identical chromatograms. Mild because I might be wrong; an objection because nobody has addressed the case that does not fit.

22 likes in reply to #14 21mo
MA
m.agyemanTL220 Oct 2024#39

The strongest single signal available cheaply is what happens when you ask a technical question. A quantitative answer inside a working day is difficult to fake at scale.

This has been discussed before and I could not find the thread, so, again.

23 likes 21mo
NT
n.torrenceTL3Regular23 Oct 2024#40

The claim about identical chromatograms upthread is stronger than its source supports. I have read the source. The source says "associated with" and the post says "causes".

0 likes 21mo
EM
e.mwangiTL225 Oct 2024#41
d.bakker, post #25: Genuine question rather than a rhetorical one: has anyone here actually observed identical chromatograms, as opposed to read about it? The thread is long and I cannot tell. Go to post

I read post #39 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

One caution on identical chromatograms: everything above assumes the underlying documentation is what it claims to be. That assumption is doing real work and is rarely stated.

0 likes in reply to #25 21mo
TI
trough_indexTL3Regular28 Oct 2024#42

Inconsistency across documents: a certificate stating one purity, a website claiming another, and a supplier's verbal representation claiming a third, all on the same product, is a red flag for either incompetence or deception.

The short answer was in the first line; everything after is the working.

0 likes 21mo
AN
a.norgaardTL230 Oct 2024 · edited#43

Thank you — that answers what I came here to find out.

12 likes 21mo
NB
n.bridgewaterTL2Member2 Nov 2024#44

Taking post #42 at face value and following it one step further.

On identical chromatograms, I would rather understate and be corrected upward than overstate and be quoted. That is a house style here and it is a good one.

4 likes 21mo
AF
a.friskTL24 Nov 2024#45
BBramley, post #32: Everything in post #30 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have. A definition problem is doing most of the work in this identical chromatograms discussion. Once the term is pinned down I suspect the disagreement mostly goes away and what is left is small. Go to post

What I want from this identical chromatograms thread is the list of things that would need to be true for the claim to hold. If we can write that list, we can check it.

1 like in reply to #32 21mo
TN
t.ndiayeTL27 Nov 2024#46

A stock listing that never changes and a lead time that never varies are both worth noticing. Real operations have variation in them.

0 likes 21mo
TD
t.demirTL29 Nov 2024#47

Worth separating two things that post #44 runs together.

Identical chromatograms is a good example of a question where the honest answer is boring and the interesting answers are unsupported. I would go with boring.

17 likes 21mo
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KTurkingtonTL3Regular11 Nov 2024#48

This follows post #47 rather than contradicting it.

Keep the two claims separate. "The result on this lot did not match the certificate" is a report that can be checked. "This supplier is dishonest" is an allegation about intent and nothing in a chromatogram supports it.

Someone will know this better than I do and I hope they say so.

7 likes 20mo
CB
c.bakkerTL214 Nov 2024#49

The number people quote for identical chromatograms is a central estimate presented without its interval, and the interval is wide enough that the estimate is nearly uninformative on its own.

0 likes 20mo
JN
j.nascimentoTL216 Nov 2024#50
s.vogel, post #9: The useful distinction on identical chromatograms is between what was measured and what was inferred from it. Both end up in the same sentence and only one of them has error bars. Go to post

Confirming post #47 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Reading this identical chromatograms thread as someone who came in with a fixed view: the third and seventh replies moved me and the confident ones did not.

18 likes in reply to #9 20mo
DA
d.achebeTL219 Nov 2024#51
t.tulloch, post #37: Post #36 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. What I would check first on identical chromatograms is whether the thing being measured moved or whether the way of measuring it moved. Those look identical in a graph. Go to post

Adding a data point of agreement rather than a data point.

0 likes in reply to #37 20mo
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DKwiatkowskiTL321 Nov 2024#52
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j.lokkenTL223 Nov 2024#53

Speaking only to identical chromatograms as I have actually seen it, rather than as it is usually described: the effect is real, it is smaller than the thread suggests, and the variance between people is larger than the effect.

8 likes 20mo
TF
taper_fileTL3Regular26 Nov 2024#54

A request rather than an answer: could whoever has the primary source for identical chromatograms post it? I have seen the claim three times this month and each version had lost a qualifier.

19 likes 20mo
AV
a.villalobosTL228 Nov 2024#55
t.ndiaye, post #46: A stock listing that never changes and a lead time that never varies are both worth noticing. Real operations have variation in them. Go to post

Post #54 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Prices well below the rest of the market are a fact rather than a finding. They are worth noting and they do not establish anything on their own.

Posted with less confidence than the sentence structure implies.

27 likes in reply to #46 20mo
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DSakamotoTL3Regular30 Nov 2024#56

Coming back to post #53, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

I disagree with the framing of identical chromatograms above, and I think it is a substantive disagreement rather than a terminological one. Setting out why, so it can be checked.

The reasoning depends on an assumption that is doing a lot of work and is never stated. If the assumption holds, the conclusion follows. I do not think it holds generally.

0 likes 20mo
AM
a.molnarTL23 Dec 2024#57

Practical note on identical chromatograms: write down what you expect before you look. The number of times I have found what I went looking for is higher than chance would allow.

5 likes 20mo
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baseline_tableTL2Member5 Dec 2024 · edited#58

A document with no method identification is not evidence of anything wrong. It is evidence that the document cannot be checked, which is a different and weaker statement.

A partial answer, offered because a partial answer beats none.

13 likes 20mo
TB
t.brandtTL27 Dec 2024#59
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d.magalhesTL2Member9 Dec 2024#60

Where the identical chromatograms reasoning breaks down for me is the step from the group result to the individual case. That step is almost never argued for.

0 likes 20mo