The Peptide CommonsEst. May 2024
Independent. We sell nothing and are affiliated with no manufacturer or pharmacy. Every moderation action is logged in public
Clinical · Special populations

People with a low starting BMI: where the evidence stops

VF
v.fontaineTL26 Sep 2024#1

Posting this under the heading it deserves: People with a low starting BMI: where the evidence stops Everything below is what sits behind that.

Asking about a population rather than about a person.

The published trials in this class mostly enrolled a fairly specific group, and the questions here frequently come from people well outside it. I would like to understand what the honest position is when someone falls outside the studied population: not "it is fine" and not "there is no data", but what the reasoning actually looks like.

44 likes 23mo
JD
j.delacroixTL3Regular15 Sep 2024#2

The opening post describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Body weight at the extremes of the studied range affects exposure and the trials rarely reported enough to say by how much.

I would want the raw data before agreeing with my own summary of it.

0 likes 22mo
SO
sa.okonkwoTL221 Sep 2024#3

The opening post is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Almost every population discussed here was excluded from the pivotal trials, which means the evidence base is observational at best and absent at worst.

Someone should write this up properly, and it should probably not be me.

3 likes 22mo
AW
a.westergaardTL3Regular27 Sep 2024 · edited#4
sa.okonkwo, post #3: The opening post is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Almost every population discussed here was excluded from the pivotal trials, which means the evidence base is observational at best and absent at worst. Someone should write this up properly, and it should probably not be me. Go to post

Post-surgical populations, particularly after procedures affecting the gastrointestinal tract, interact with a delayed-emptying mechanism in ways that need specialist input.

Take it as a starting point and not as a specification.

11 likes in reply to #3 22mo
AW
am.wikstromTL22 Oct 2024#5
v.fontaine, post #1: Posting this under the heading it deserves: People with a low starting BMI: where the evidence stops Everything below is what sits behind that. Asking about a population rather than about a person. The published trials in this class mostly enrolled a fairly specific group, and the questions here frequently come from people well outside… Go to post

The arithmetic in post #4 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Extrapolating a point estimate to somebody well outside the enrolled range should be described as an extrapolation every time it is done.

One case, stated as one case.

32 likes in reply to #1 22mo
DM
d.magalhesTL2Member7 Oct 2024#6

Answering the question post #2 raises rather than the one it answers.

Dedicated trials in under-studied populations are the only real remedy and several are ongoing, which is worth saying rather than speculating.

Stating my assumptions rather than smuggling them in.

0 likes 22mo
BB
b.brandtTL212 Oct 2024#7

Being outside the studied population does not mean a treatment is unsafe. It means the usual evidence is not available and the reasoning has to be explicit.

6 likes 22mo
M
MSaarinenTL3Regular16 Oct 2024#8
d.magalhes, post #6: Answering the question post #2 raises rather than the one it answers. Dedicated trials in under-studied populations are the only real remedy and several are ongoing, which is worth saying rather than speculating. Stating my assumptions rather than smuggling them in. Go to post

Where a population is under-studied, registry data accumulates first and is confounded by indication in ways that are hard to correct.

16 likes in reply to #6 21mo
CK
c.kuuselaTL220 Oct 2024 · edited#9

Adding a note of thanks rather than an opinion. I did not know most of that.

0 likes 21mo
D
DSakamotoTL3Regular25 Oct 2024#10

The absence of a reported signal in a population that was barely enrolled is not evidence about that population.

1 like 21mo
RM
r.mensahTL229 Oct 2024#11

Pregnancy and breastfeeding are the clearest cases where the answer is that the trials excluded them and the labelling reflects that exclusion.

It is the sort of thing that seems obvious in retrospect and was not at the time.

0 likes 21mo
YM
y.mensahTL3Wiki editor2 Nov 2024#12

Post #10 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Adolescent evidence exists for some compounds in this class and is a separate approval decision with its own trials rather than an extension of the adult data.

The evidence for this is thinner than the way I have phrased it suggests.

32 likes 21mo
HE
h.espinozaTL26 Nov 2024 · edited#13
y.mensah, post #12: Post #10 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. Adolescent evidence exists for some compounds in this class and is a separate approval decision with its own trials rather than an extension of the adult data. The evidence for this is thinner than the way I have phrased it suggests. Go to post

Athletes and people in substantial training loads are effectively unstudied, and the questions asked here about performance have no trial evidence behind them at all.

16 likes in reply to #12 21mo
ST
slow_titratorTL210 Nov 2024#14
TK
t.karlsenTL214 Nov 2024#15

Coming back to post #13, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

People on multiple medicines are under-represented in trials by design, and that is the population most of the interaction questions come from.

I looked this up rather than remembered it, which is the right order.

1 like 20mo
WN
w.novakTL3Regular17 Nov 2024#16
a.westergaard, post #4: Post-surgical populations, particularly after procedures affecting the gastrointestinal tract, interact with a delayed-emptying mechanism in ways that need specialist input. Take it as a starting point and not as a specification. Go to post

Thank you for taking the time. That was more work than a reply usually is.

0 likes in reply to #4 20mo
YA
y.asanteTL221 Nov 2024#17

Dedicated trials in under-studied populations are the only real remedy and several are ongoing, which is worth saying rather than speculating.

I have changed my mind on this once already, so take it as current rather than settled.

23 likes 20mo
JW
journalclub_wrenTL3Regular25 Nov 2024#18

Extrapolating a point estimate to somebody well outside the enrolled range should be described as an extrapolation every time it is done.

That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many.

10 likes 20mo
RI
r.ilungaTL228 Nov 2024#19

The most useful contribution here is usually a citation to whichever published document comes closest, with a plain statement of how far it is from the question.

3 likes 20mo
SG
s.grahameTL2Member2 Dec 2024#20
journalclub_wren, post #18: Extrapolating a point estimate to somebody well outside the enrolled range should be described as an extrapolation every time it is done. That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many. Go to post

Body weight at the extremes of the studied range affects exposure and the trials rarely reported enough to say by how much.

0 likes in reply to #18 20mo
TB
t.brandtTL25 Dec 2024#21

Nothing in this subcategory is medical advice and the questions asked here are precisely the ones that need an individual assessment.

I am aware this is the third time this month I have made this point.

29 likes 20mo
KB
k.bettencourtTL2Member9 Dec 2024#22

Hypoglycemia risk: in people already on insulin or sulfonylureas, adding a GLP-1 agonist requires insulin dose reduction and close monitoring for hypoglycemia. This is manageable with attention.

This is the version I would want a new member to read first.

0 likes 20mo
EK
ew.kuuselaTL212 Dec 2024 · edited#23

Taking post #22 at face value and following it one step further.

Where a labelling document addresses a population explicitly, that text is the single most useful thing to quote in a thread.

5 likes 19mo
BT
baseline_tableTL2Member16 Dec 2024#24
j.delacroix, post #2: The opening post describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one. Body weight at the extremes of the studied range affects exposure and the trials rarely reported enough to say by how much. I would want the raw data before agreeing with my own summary of it. Go to post

Post #20 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Post-surgical populations, particularly after procedures affecting the gastrointestinal tract, interact with a delayed-emptying mechanism in ways that need specialist input.

14 likes in reply to #2 19mo
FL
f.laurentTL219 Dec 2024#25
SE
septum_entryTL2Member23 Dec 2024#26

Coming back to post #24, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Dedicated trials in under-studied populations are the only real remedy and several are ongoing, which is worth saying rather than speculating.

0 likes 19mo
AC
a.coelhoTL226 Dec 2024#27

Fine by me. I had wanted a stronger conclusion and there is not one available.

9 likes 19mo
CW
cohort_watchTL2Member29 Dec 2024#28
am.wikstrom, post #5: The arithmetic in post #4 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check. Extrapolating a point estimate to somebody well outside the enrolled range should be described as an extrapolation every time it is done. One case, stated as one case. Go to post

Older adults: sarcopenia risk is higher, polypharmacy is common, and the clinical trials did not enroll many people over 75. Extrapolating to very old people is extrapolating beyond the data.

Happy to be the one who is wrong here if it settles the question.

20 likes in reply to #5 19mo

Suggested topics

TopicParticipantsRepliesViewsActivity
Renal impairment: what the labelling says about dose
On the subject in the title: Renal impairment: what the labelling says about dose Working notes rather than a conclusion. A methods question rather than a substantive one, about renal impairment. Everyone…
OVJPZOFKJB 4 8.9k 19mo
Adolescents: a distinct evidence base
Adolescents: a distinct evidence base Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. What changes if the standard account of adolescents is wrong? I ask because I have been…
RMAJGTIG 3 11k 9h
Pregnancy and pregnancy planning: contraindication and washout
Posting this under the heading it deserves: Pregnancy and pregnancy planning: contraindication and washout Everything below is what sits behind that. Pregnancy and pregnancy planning: setting out the…
CIBPMNIDHC+111 122 2.4k 3mo
Athletes in weight-category sports: a different risk calculus
Athletes in weight-category sports: a different risk calculus — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. Something about athletes in weight-category sports does not reconcile and I…
OOBSMCBVB+38 42 6.6k 1d
Second pass at: Pregnancy and pregnancy planning: contraindication and washout
Second pass at: Pregnancy and pregnancy planning: contraindication and washout Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. Something about Pregnancy and pregnancy…
BTJCOHNT+111 127 1.6k 6mo

Related topics — sharing the tags pregnancy & planning, chronic kidney disease, older adults

TopicParticipantsRepliesViewsActivity
Gastro-oesophageal reflux: improving or worsening?
The question in the title: Gastro-oesophageal reflux: improving or worsening? I will give what I have already checked below so nobody repeats it. Collecting what is known about gastro-oesophageal reflux in…
PMMNZDID+54 58 8.2k 1mo
Hypertension improvement and when medication needs revisiting
Hypertension improvement and when medication needs revisiting Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. Hypertension improvement: setting out the arithmetic in full,…
ZCIMNBPSO+74 79 1.1k 10mo
Pregnancy as an absolute contraindication — the long version
On the subject in the title: Pregnancy as an absolute contraindication — the long version Working notes rather than a conclusion. A narrow question about Pregnancy, deliberately narrow, because the broad…
MNJHCB 2 5.3k 14mo
Follow-up: History of disordered eating and why it changes the conversation
Posting this under the heading it deserves: History of disordered eating and why it changes the conversation Everything below is what sits behind that. What changes if the standard account of History of…
LWFDAIRMRN+75 81 23k 10mo
Gallbladder disease risk with rapid weight loss
Posting this under the heading it deserves: Gallbladder disease risk with rapid weight loss Everything below is what sits behind that. Gallbladder disease risk — I have the observation and I do not trust my…
IBRIJVPYR+56 63 34k 18mo