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Practice · Dosing & titration · continued

Splitting a weekly dose in two: the pharmacokinetic argument against — the long version posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

HB
h.bhattacharyaTL28 Jul 2024#61
h.varga, post #52: The thing about Splitting a weekly dose that took me longest to accept is that a plausible mechanism is not evidence of an effect. It is a reason to look, not a result. Go to post

The claim about Splitting a weekly dose upthread is stronger than its source supports. I have read the source. The source says "associated with" and the post says "causes".

0 likes in reply to #52 2.1y
CI
c.inglethorpeTL3Regular8 Jul 2024#62

Coming back to post #60, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

If symptoms reset at each step, that is the expected pattern rather than a sign that the previous adaptation was imaginary. Every dose increase is a new exposure.

1 like 2.1y
RN
r.novakTL28 Jul 2024#63

This follows post #62 rather than contradicting it.

Writing down the date, the dose and the site each week takes fifteen seconds and is the single most useful record anyone here keeps. Memory reconstructs a titration history that never happened.

It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one.

11 likes 2.1y
C
CSagredoTL3Regular8 Jul 2024#64

Splitting a weekly dose: I would want to see the raw numbers rather than the summary before agreeing. Summaries lose exactly the information that would settle this.

24 likes 2.1y
AM
a.mwangiTL28 Jul 2024#65
c.inglethorpe, post #62: Coming back to post #60, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. If symptoms reset at each step, that is the expected pattern rather than a sign that the previous adaptation was imaginary. Every dose increase is a new exposure. Go to post

This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not.

0 likes in reply to #62 2.1y
B
BGiordanoTL2Member8 Jul 2024#66
OTeixeira, post #12: An honest declaration on Splitting a weekly dose: I have a prior here and it is strong enough that you should weight what I say downward. Stating it rather than hiding it. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #64 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

The documentation on Splitting a weekly dose is better than this thread and I say that as someone who has posted in the thread.

3 likes in reply to #12 2.1y
LD
l.dialloTL28 Jul 2024#67

The maximum studied dose is a fact about the trial and not a ceiling on the molecule. It is also the last point at which anything is known, which is the reason to treat it as one.

I have kept the units in throughout, for the obvious reason.

17 likes 2.1y
CD
cannula_driftTL3Regular8 Jul 2024#68

Concentration and dose get conflated constantly in this subcategory. Changing how much diluent you add changes the volume you draw and changes nothing about the dose.

That is a description of practice, not a recommendation of it.

32 likes 2.1y
AL
a.lindholmTL28 Jul 2024#69

Post #66 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Holding a dose indefinitely: the trials did not study indefinite holding at a non-maximum dose. The trials escalated to a target and then held that. What happens if you stay at an intermediate dose for years is not formally studied and extrapolation is the best available reasoning.

I have left out the parts I could not verify.

25 likes 2.1y
HM
h.mbekiTL28 Jul 2024#70

Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on.

Reading it again, the caveat matters more than the finding.

0 likes 2.1y
K
KTurkingtonTL3Regular8 Jul 2024#71
h.eriksen, post #27: Dose and effect are not linear across the studied range for every compound in this class. Assuming a doubled dose gives a doubled effect is the reasoning error behind most disappointment. Adding it in case it saves somebody the afternoon it cost me. Go to post

Everything in post #67 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

The version of Splitting a weekly dose that circulates here is a simplification of a simplification. It is not wrong, but it has lost the conditions under which it holds, and those conditions are where the interesting cases live.

31 likes in reply to #27 2.1y
FN
f.novakTL28 Jul 2024 · edited#72

Two people in this thread mean different things by Splitting a weekly dose and are disagreeing about the definition while believing they are disagreeing about the facts. Worth pausing to define it.

16 likes 2.1y
TN
t.ndiayeTL28 Jul 2024#73

The maximum studied dose is a fact about the trial and not a ceiling on the molecule. It is also the last point at which anything is known, which is the reason to treat it as one.

Two people can read the same figure differently here and both be reasonable.

3 likes 2.1y
SB
s.bergstromTL28 Jul 2024#74
BR
buffer_reviewTL3Regular9 Jul 2024#75

Nothing to add, except that this is the answer I would give if asked.

24 likes 2.1y
AC
a.cardosoTL29 Jul 2024 · edited#76

Post #73 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Dose equivalence between different incretin analogues is a weak concept. The molecules differ in structure, half-life, receptor selectivity, and in what has been studied clinically. One mg of semaglutide is not equivalent to one mg of something else in any meaningful sense.

11 likes 2.1y
TI
trough_indexTL3Regular9 Jul 2024#77

The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is reasoning from theory, not from evidence.

1 like 2.1y
AN
a.norgaardTL29 Jul 2024#78
a.vestergaard, post #38: Appreciated. The plain phrasing does more work here than a longer post would. Go to post

Splitting a weekly dose in two: the pharmacokinetic argument against is that you want the benefit of long half-life, which gives a slowly changing plasma level from a weekly dosing schedule. Splitting it flattens the curve further but loses the convenience of once-weekly dosing. The trade-off is convenience versus a slightly flatter concentration curve.

Filing this under things that are true until someone shows me otherwise.

0 likes in reply to #38 2.1y
MB
m.brobergTL29 Jul 2024 · edited#79
v.milanovi, post #46: I read post #42 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Reaching a dose and staying there for a year: the question of whether a stable dose remains effective over years is mostly answered by the withdrawal trials and by real-world reports. The dose does not seem to stop working, but the longest trials are not… Go to post

If symptoms reset at each step, that is the expected pattern rather than a sign that the previous adaptation was imaginary. Every dose increase is a new exposure.

Genuinely open to being wrong about this one.

0 likes in reply to #46 2.1y
AR
a.reyesTL4 Admin9 Jul 2024#80
journalclub_wren, post #29: Picking up post #26: that is the part I would want checked first. Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on.… Go to post

Post #79 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

A missed dose in a weekly schedule is not a trough to chase. With a week-long half-life you are perturbing a slowly moving average, and the labelling for licensed products in this class says take it if the next dose is far enough away and skip it otherwise.

Flagging that the sources on this are thinner than the confidence in the thread suggests.

30 likes in reply to #29 2.1y
JI
j.iyerTL29 Jul 2024#81

Building on post #80 rather than restating it.

When a dose reduction is the correct response to a side effect: if a side effect is dose-dependent (nausea, constipation, injection discomfort), reducing the dose is a reasonable response. If the side effect is not dose-dependent (e.g., hypoglycemia with insulin), dose reduction does not address the issue.

3 likes 2.1y
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batchlogTL3Regular9 Jul 2024#82
a.teixeira, post #32: Dose equivalence between different incretin analogues is a weak concept. The molecules differ in structure, half-life, receptor selectivity, and in what has been studied clinically. One mg of semaglutide is not equivalent to one mg of something else in any meaningful sense. Go to post

Post #78 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Reaching a dose and staying there for a year: the question of whether a stable dose remains effective over years is mostly answered by the withdrawal trials and by real-world reports. The dose does not seem to stop working, but the longest trials are not indefinitely long.

I am not the right person to answer the follow-up to this.

11 likes in reply to #32 2.1y
SK
s.kuuselaTL29 Jul 2024#83

Research-use-only material is not a licensed product and no labelling covers it. Everything in this subcategory about published schedules describes what was done in trials of licensed formulations.

The mechanism is plausible, which is not the same as established.

23 likes 2.1y
TY
two_year_lineTL3Regular9 Jul 2024#84

Two questions I would want answered before drawing anything from the Splitting a weekly dose data above: how were the cases selected, and what happened to the ones that dropped out.

0 likes 2.1y
GR
g.radichTL29 Jul 2024#85

Titrating on tolerability rather than on the calendar: some people escalate when they tolerate a dose well, others escalate on the prescribed schedule regardless. The published trials used a calendar-based schedule. Tolerability-based escalation has no formal evidence base but is not uncommon in practice.

1 like 2.1y
MM
maintenance_modeTL3Regular9 Jul 2024#86

That matches what I have seen, for whatever a single anecdote is worth.

6 likes 2.1y
KP
k.pereiraTL29 Jul 2024 · edited#87
h.koodziej, post #44: Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on. Go to post

What I want from this Splitting a weekly dose thread is the list of things that would need to be true for the claim to hold. If we can write that list, we can check it.

17 likes in reply to #44 2.1y
RV
r.venkatesanTL3Wiki editor9 Jul 2024#88

Escalating before steady state means you are judging a dose you have not yet fully experienced. That is the whole argument against compressing the schedule and it is a good one.

I am reporting what happened, not recommending it.

32 likes 2.1y
FK
f.kimaniTL29 Jul 2024#89

Splitting a weekly dose is worth one more sentence than it usually gets, and the sentence is the one about how the number was arrived at.

10 likes 2.1y
K
KLindqvistTL49 Jul 2024#90